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-   -   International (TATL/TPAC) OP-UP vs. SWU (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-air-lines-skymiles/1345094-international-tatl-tpac-op-up-vs-swu.html)

SoraAoi May 11, 2012 6:27 am

International (TATL/TPAC) OP-UP vs. SWU
 
Hello FTers!

This is my first post, although I am an experienced DL flyer (DM, 1MM+, all real miles). My question was triggered by a recent TATL flight (May 7 JFK-SVO), and since I witnessed similar situations before too, I wanted to ask whether you see anything wrong with this picture or this is a SOP.

Was on a refundable B fare, listed for a PU503/SWU upgrade in Z. Everything was coded properly, I think (comp UG listed, Z waitlisted as a separate line). The flight looked pretty good, with some 10 seats or so open in the morning (4 pm departure; Expert Flyer showed J9C9D9I9S9 all the way to 5 min before the departure (have screenshots, have not figured how to post them yet). Got to the gate from my connecting flight only to find that there were 8 or 9 "UP" people on the screen, but I was not one of them. Asked a GA (who was mostly busy stamping boarding passes with DOCS OK stamp), was told that all upgrades were already processed, and if yours wasn't, means you were too low on the list. She did not want to check anything though, just told me that. I found it hard to believe given my fare and PU503/SWU, but so be it.

Turned out that Y was oversold and most people were OP-UPed, but not necessarily high status PAX (there were a couple of NRSAs, I think -- Russian-speaking FAs were very friendly with them and spoke in Russian; for sure a couple Medallion companions). When I checked the ExpertFlyer again, just a few minutes before the departure, BE seatmap was completely full, but J9C9D9I9 availability remained.

I know that formally I got what I paid for, but when I am paying $4K for a ticket, am a Diamond Medallion with nearly 200K real miles a year, and offer to use my SWUs, shouldn't I get the highest priority for an UG, definitely trumping OP-UPs and NRSAs? While OP-UPs may not be explicitly governed by any program rules, UG priority using SWU is, right?

As for witnessing similar things before, I was referring to "friendly" Russian-speaking GAs at JFK who always seem to favor their Russian buddies over everyone else (and I understand enough Russian to know what they are talking about). Also saw it on the return, SVO-JFK, flights: don't even know if official computer-generated lists exist there and/or status and fare matter at all. Knowing ground folks seems to be much more important than anything else. I don't want to accuse anyone of doing anything improper, but it looks .... unusual, at least to me (and no, I am not a suspicious or paranoid type).

Anybody else seen anything similar on other DL flights or this is a unique thing for this route?

http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/...at110525AM.png

http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/...at110542AM.png

EchoVictor May 11, 2012 8:05 am

Sounds like you got hosed. I doubt there were nine or ten diamonds on upgradable fares ahead of you... and I don't think there are any others upgrade priorities that could be ahead of you (unless the people in the back were on business fares without seat assignments, but I don't think that's the case).

In an oversell situation, the passengers confirmed in Y but on the upgrade list should be processed first before op-ups. Usually this list is very small or even non-existent, because it can typically only be Platinum or Diamonds on eligible fares using SWUs.

Have you written Delta yet?

DHalltheway May 11, 2012 11:00 am


Originally Posted by SoraAoi (Post 18554942)
Hello FTers!

This is my first post, although I am an experienced DL flyer (DM, 1MM+, all real miles). My question was triggered by a recent TATL flight (May 7 JFK-SVO), and since I witnessed similar situations before too, I wanted to ask whether you see anything wrong with this picture or this is a SOP.

Was on a refundable B fare, listed for a PU503/SWU upgrade in Z. Everything was coded properly, I think (comp UG listed, Z waitlisted as a separate line). The flight looked pretty good, with some 10 seats or so open in the morning (4 pm departure; Expert Flyer showed J9C9D9I9S9 all the way to 5 min before the departure (have screenshots, have not figured how to post them yet). Got to the gate from my connecting flight only to find that there were 8 or 9 "UP" people on the screen, but I was not one of them. Asked a GA (who was mostly busy stamping boarding passes with DOCS OK stamp), was told that all upgrades were already processed, and if yours wasn't, means you were too low on the list. She did not want to check anything though, just told me that. I found it hard to believe given my fare and PU503/SWU, but so be it.

Turned out that Y was oversold and most people were OP-UPed, but not necessarily high status PAX (there were a couple of NRSAs, I think -- Russian-speaking FAs were very friendly with them and spoke in Russian; for sure a couple Medallion companions). When I checked the ExpertFlyer again, just a few minutes before the departure, BE seatmap was completely full, but J9C9D9I9 availability remained.

I know that formally I got what I paid for, but when I am paying $4K for a ticket, am a Diamond Medallion with nearly 200K real miles a year, and offer to use my SWUs, shouldn't I get the highest priority for an UG, definitely trumping OP-UPs and NRSAs? While OP-UPs may not be explicitly governed by any program rules, UG priority using SWU is, right?

As for witnessing similar things before, I was referring to "friendly" Russian-speaking GAs at JFK who always seem to favor their Russian buddies over everyone else (and I understand enough Russian to know what they are talking about). Also saw it on the return, SVO-JFK, flights: don't even know if official computer-generated lists exist there and/or status and fare matter at all. Knowing ground folks seems to be much more important than anything else. I don't want to accuse anyone of doing anything improper, but it looks .... unusual, at least to me (and no, I am not a suspicious or paranoid type).

Anybody else seen anything similar on other DL flights or this is a unique thing for this route?

:-:Welcome to FT OP!:-:

I agree with Victor you got hosed! However, DL's Op-up policy isn't necessarily published so we can't necessarily argue against that.

However, technically speak, SWUs only work with Z availability. Thus, if there was Z no availability in and it wasn't processed, you won't get the upgrades.

Many have said they won't purchase YBM tickets to use SWUs on unless there is Z class available and that is a good rule of thumb to follow.

HongKonger May 11, 2012 11:09 am

OP, how do you know your SWU was properly coded? More often than not they are improperly coded.

Also, how were there comp UGs on a TATL?

Yet another example of why I never buy an M fare unless the Z upgrade is available at time of purchase and why I always ask for the ticket to be reissued at the time of purchase.

SoraAoi May 11, 2012 11:17 am


Originally Posted by EchoVictor (Post 18555429)
Sounds like you got hosed. I doubt there were nine or ten diamonds on upgradable fares ahead of you... and I don't think there are any others upgrade priorities that could be ahead of you (unless the people in the back were on business fares without seat assignments, but I don't think that's the case).

In an oversell situation, the passengers confirmed in Y but on the upgrade list should be processed first before op-ups. Usually this list is very small or even non-existent, because it can typically only be Platinum or Diamonds on eligible fares using SWUs.

Have you written Delta yet?

No, I have not written DL yet. Don't really do that very often. I guess I should in case something was indeed wrong (and I think it really was GA'a fault, was lazy or, more likely, upgraded those who should not have been. For whatever reason).

Somewhat off the original topic, I was really surprised by several things on this flight. DL was normally flying 764 with flat beds on this route, but now it is an old 763!! For the last month or so. And this is a longer flight which usually has good paid J loads! What is the logic? They are flying the new planes on much shorter routes to Europe (like FRA, MAD, BCN, etc.)

I usually fly in business, and on many different airlines, but end up in coach every now and then too. Have not been in DL's Y for a while. Boy, it is really minimalistic! The food is pretty much not edible, the seats are not very comfortable at all, even in EC, and the service is really underwhelming. Would be nice to get at least a couple of rounds of water on a 10 hr flight. Not even that! I guess, it is normal these days, but I thought DL was tooting their horn about great Q1 performance, but how did it manage that? Definitely not through their customer care! I should have bought a cheapest T ticket and tipped a GA, and being a DM would have gotten an OP-UP easily!

mtkeller May 11, 2012 11:20 am


Originally Posted by DHalltheway (Post 18556463)
:-:Welcome to FT OP!:-:

I agree with Victor you got hosed! However, DL's Op-up policy isn't necessarily published so we can't necessarily argue against that.

However, technically speak, SWUs only work with Z availability. Thus, if there was Z no availability in and it wasn't processed, you won't get the upgrades.

Many have said they won't purchase YBM tickets to use SWUs on unless there is Z class available and that is a good rule of thumb to follow.

Z availability goes out the window once it goes to the gate upgrade list. Assuming properly transferred from the Z wait list to the airport wait list (a big if!), then the GA should clear you into open J seats as there's not really any more Z inventory at that stage.

SoraAoi May 11, 2012 11:23 am


Originally Posted by HongKonger (Post 18556522)
OP, how do you know your SWU was properly coded? More often than not they are improperly coded.

Also, how were there comp UGs on a TATL?

Yet another example of why I never buy an M fare unless the Z upgrade is available at time of purchase and why I always ask for the ticket to be reissued at the time of purchase.

Well, I can only guess that they were properly coded: Z was waitlisted as a separate line before the confirmed flight, the DM upgrade was listed as usual to the right of the confirmed flight on the domestic portion.

There are no comp UG on a TATL as far as I know, I was referring to the domestic "feeder" portion (and I got the domestic upgrade).

Yeah, it was even higher than M, BEERT9, I think, the fully changeable/refundable B fare. A ticket I got a while ago and changed a few times. I would prefer not to buy a YBM either unless Z is confirmed right away, but sometime you have to do what you have to do, no choice.

SoraAoi May 11, 2012 11:28 am


Originally Posted by DHalltheway (Post 18556463)
:-:Welcome to FT OP!:-:

I agree with Victor you got hosed! However, DL's Op-up policy isn't necessarily published so we can't necessarily argue against that.

However, technically speak, SWUs only work with Z availability. Thus, if there was Z no availability in and it wasn't processed, you won't get the upgrades.

Many have said they won't purchase YBM tickets to use SWUs on unless there is Z class available and that is a good rule of thumb to follow.

Thank you for the welcome.

Doesn't gate upgrade list get prioritized the same way, i.e. high BEERT (one tiny step down from YEE) and SWU should put you pretty much on the top of the list? Same thing as when Z/G is not available on a domestic flight, you normally still end up at the top of the gate list, right?

SoraAoi May 11, 2012 11:32 am


Originally Posted by mtkeller (Post 18556599)
Z availability goes out the window once it goes to the gate upgrade list. Assuming properly transferred from the Z wait list to the airport wait list (a big if!), then the GA should clear you into open J seats as there's not really any more Z inventory at that stage.

Yeah, exactly, that's what I thought - and it should have put me very high on the list, right? I have no reason to think it was not coded properly. More likely that the list was run by the GA to clear those that s/he wanted instead of those that should have been. It is much easier to do on the INTL flights: the GAs have a LOT (like limitless) discretion especially when Y is even slightly oversold, and hence an enormous potential for abuse ...

avflyer May 11, 2012 12:13 pm

I fly this route a couple of times each year and most recently returned from SVO the last Friday in April (prior to the holidays). Both on this return and one this past fall, I was on a B fare and at the time of booking J9 was showing with Z0.

Also, I have only flown 763's on this route - no lie-flats yet.

In the fall, with three days to go and J6 showing, my Z upgrade loaded.

On this past trip, J dropped to 0 a few days after I booked and hovered between 2 and 5 on in the two weeks before departure. Most likely because of the holidays, it was not looking good so about ten days out I switched my return from SVO-JFK to SVO-PRG-JFK (in BE). Boy am I happy I did. I still was wait listed for SVO-JFK and since both SVO departures were within 15 minutes of each other, figured I could see what would happen the morning of departure and switch back if Z loaded.

Suffice it to say, that Z did not load and as a PM with but a few seats remaining, the GA noted that I was most likely not going to clear as I was too far down the list. So I kept my connection via PRG.

SoraAoi May 11, 2012 12:52 pm


Originally Posted by avflyer (Post 18556900)
I fly this route a couple of times each year and most recently returned from SVO the last Friday in April (prior to the holidays). Both on this return and one this past fall, I was on a B fare and at the time of booking J9 was showing with Z0.

Also, I have only flown 763's on this route - no lie-flats yet.

In the fall, with three days to go and J6 showing, my Z upgrade loaded.

On this past trip, J dropped to 0 a few days after I booked and hovered between 2 and 5 on in the two weeks before departure. Most likely because of the holidays, it was not looking good so about ten days out I switched my return from SVO-JFK to SVO-PRG-JFK (in BE). Boy am I happy I did. I still was wait listed for SVO-JFK and since both SVO departures were within 15 minutes of each other, figured I could see what would happen the morning of departure and switch back if Z loaded.

Suffice it to say, that Z did not load and as a PM with but a few seats remaining, the GA noted that I was most likely not going to clear as I was too far down the list. So I kept my connection via PRG.

Getting a confirmed alternative routing was smart, of course, especially given the time of the year (May holidays are a big deal in Russia).

At least there was a list (sounds like the GA was referring to one). That's already encouraging. As long as Y is not oversold and GAs don't have a carte blanche, it may actually work as intended.

avflyer May 11, 2012 1:42 pm


Originally Posted by SoraAoi (Post 18557098)
Getting a confirmed alternative routing was smart, of course, especially given the time of the year (May holidays are a big deal in Russia).

At least there was a list (sounds like the GA was referring to one). That's already encouraging. As long as Y is not oversold and the GA did not a carte blanche, it may actually work as intended.

I wouldn't count on the list being fully functional as others have noted first hand experience in preferential play. I know the flight was full so encouraging me to keep my actual routing might have been a plus. That said, with J levels low to begin with and the potential for a few DMs snagging any available seats, the decision was easy for me.

That said, in light of other comments about what might happen once it gets handed over to gate control, I will plan future travel in a similar manner if Z does not clear prior to arriving at the airport. I can't imagine sitting in Y that long. As you point out, even with EC it's still too much time with limited personal space.

Now if you end up doing the same one day (and the PRG upgrade seems relatively easy to get), note that check in for SU to PRG is out of Terminal F. It's a decent walk and leave yourself enough time because the GA working the check-in never had to process a SVO-PRG-JFK before. Had I not insisted it could be done, she would have just checked me into PRG where I would have had to collect my luggage and re-check in again ... something not possible in the 1:15 layover.

I persisted it was possible and she ran off to a nearby office where someone showed her what to do. She was extremely proud to show me that not only did the luggage tag now read JFK but that in addition to my SVO-PRG boarding pass, she also handed me my PRG-JFK boarding pass. Pins and needles for a moment there but in the end all was good.

The only downside is that they do not honor the 70lb luggage limit for the SVO-PRG leg and you fly that leg in Y. The good news, at least for me was that upon arriving in PRG, we parked right next to the DL gate.

cmaas May 11, 2012 2:10 pm

Interesting thread... something I've seen (well, suspected really) was happening.

A related topic: I've been cleared via SWU at the gate a number of times only to discover OP-UPs happening all around me. It's one of those situations where you can't really complain because you got what you paid for (high $ ticket and surrender of SWU) but geez, if I'm gonna get bumped anyway it would be nice to let me hang on to my precious SWU!

Like the OP, I have to take the M+ fare / no Z gamble sometimes. Usually works out but I've been caught short a couple times - where they couldn't even squeeze me into EC even though I paid 3x what my seatmates paid. Kinda puts me in a mood, ya know.

Xeno May 11, 2012 2:18 pm


Originally Posted by avflyer (Post 18556900)
I fly this route a couple of times each year and most recently returned from SVO the last Friday in April (prior to the holidays).

Also, I have only flown 763's on this route - no lie-flats yet.

In the fall, with three days to go and J6 showing, my Z upgrade loaded.

On this past trip, J dropped to 0 a few days after I booked and hovered between 2 and 5 on in the two weeks before departure. Most likely because of the holidays, it was not looking good so about ten days out I switched my return from SVO-JFK to SVO-PRG-JFK (in BE). Boy am I happy I did. I still was wait listed for SVO-JFK and since both SVO departures were within 15 minutes of each other, figured I could see what would happen the morning of departure and switch back if Z loaded.

Suffice it to say, that Z did not load and as a PM with but a few seats remaining, the GA noted that I was most likely not going to clear as I was too far down the list. So I kept my connection via PRG.

I have yet to fly the new 763 period but am presently booked on a 764 SVO-JFK for 10/4 and will be very frustrated and looking for alternatives if they change this back to the old 763 which I flew 5/11 SVO-JFK. In 2012 alone, I already survived the old 763 for IST and will do the same soon for ATH.

rylan May 11, 2012 7:45 pm

OP, you got totally hosed, and I will also call Shenanigans on this one by the GA.

Absolutely, definitely, 100% call and write to Delta about this. It is unacceptable that they did not follow SWU airport standby procedure. As a DM using an SWU on a B fare, you would certainly be in the top couple on the list. The proper upgrade list was obviously ignored by the GA and they provided op-up to inappropriate pax. If it can be confirmed that there were NRSA given op-up ahead of you, then that is grounds for termination.

Its extremely upsetting and unfortunately, but JFK seems to be among the worst locations for GAs ignoring the rules for things like this.

AJDelvarno May 11, 2012 8:35 pm

Have your miles posted? What is noted for class paid/flown? Maybe you really did get upgraded, but someone else sat in your seat... I believe some posters here have reported in the past that, at least domestically, they have gotten home only to discover the DL site says they were upgraded...but they sat in coach.

SoraAoi May 11, 2012 10:19 pm


Originally Posted by AJDelvarno (Post 18559265)
Have your miles posted? What is noted for class paid/flown? Maybe you really did get upgraded, but someone else sat in your seat... I believe some posters here have reported in the past that, at least domestically, they have gotten home only to discover the DL site says they were upgraded...but they sat in coach.

Nope, paid B, flown B in this case. Posted as it was.

SoraAoi May 11, 2012 10:26 pm


Originally Posted by Xeno (Post 18557648)
I have yet to fly the new 763 period but am presently booked on a 764 SVO-JFK for 10/4 and will be very frustrated and looking for alternatives if they change this back to the old 763 which I flew 5/11 SVO-JFK. In 2012 alone, I already survived the old 763 for IST and will do the same soon for ATH.

Keep an eye on your October flight. 764 was listed for April-May too, but then sometime in March it was swapped for an old 763. Still better than coach, I guess.

An unrelated question (maybe I should just ask in a separate thread), for the return trip, I can go on DL in an old 763 or via AMS on KL 747 in WBC. Anybody knows which one is a better seat? Does KL fly new(er) flights/seats on AMS-LAX flights or should I stick with DL's old 763? Thanks!

mnredfox May 12, 2012 12:19 am

OP, next time when you check in at the airport check to ensure you are coded properly (not just by looking at your PNR) and that a TA tells you this.

Also, I've found that once the flight goes to gate control, EF doesn't update accordingly. I.e. if a GA clears folks into F/J, EF won't update.

NewYorkMoscowFlyer64 May 12, 2012 7:56 am

I was on the same flight as the original poster (May 7 (arr May 8) JFK to SVO).........I do not want to make the OP feel worse, but I also witnessed something I had never seen before on this flight. After everybody was seated but before the door was closed, the gate agent came onto the plane with a new boarding pass that he gave to the passenger in seat 17F and told this lucky fellow he was being upgraded. Shortly thereafter, a new passenger came on the plane to take seat 17F. I am guessing this is another one of the operational upgrades, but I cannot say for sure. The thing that I had never seen before was the gate agent come onto the plane so late/deep into the boarding process to upgrade an already boarded/fully situated passenger in coach on a tatl flight.

Also, this flight was clearly oversold in coach....when I checked in, I was asked to bid to be bumped to a different flight (and I posted about this somewhere else on this forum because I too checked Expert Flyer and was surprised to be asked to VDB on a flight for which tickets remained on sale)....my bid was not accepted. I asked the gate agent about the potential to accept a VDB and he noted my name and status (same as original poster but on a HKQ fare) and told me to wait to the side....but that was to no avail.

Sometimes on this forum, there are people who can look inside the system and see what happened on a particular flight. I am sure there were at least 2 Diamonds not upgraded...it would be interesting to see if possible the status and fare basis of the flyers that were upgraded versus some of the less fortunates that might have been considered but were not.

HongKonger May 12, 2012 10:51 am


Originally Posted by NewYorkMoscowFlyer64 (Post 18560984)
I was on the same flight as the original poster (May 7 (arr May 8) JFK to SVO).........I do not want to make the OP feel worse, but I also witnessed something I had never seen before on this flight. After everybody was seated but before the door was closed, the gate agent came onto the plane with a new boarding pass that he gave to the passenger in seat 17F and told this lucky fellow he was being upgraded. Shortly thereafter, a new passenger came on the plane to take seat 17F. I am guessing this is another one of the operational upgrades, but I cannot say for sure. The thing that I had never seen before was the gate agent come onto the plane so late/deep into the boarding process to upgrade an already boarded/fully situated passenger in coach on a tatl flight.

Also, this flight was clearly oversold in coach....when I checked in, I was asked to bid to be bumped to a different flight (and I posted about this somewhere else on this forum because I too checked Expert Flyer and was surprised to be asked to VDB on a flight for which tickets remained on sale)....my bid was not accepted. I asked the gate agent about the potential to accept a VDB and he noted my name and status (same as original poster but on a HKQ fare) and told me to wait to the side....but that was to no avail.

Sometimes on this forum, there are people who can look inside the system and see what happened on a particular flight. I am sure there were at least 2 Diamonds not upgraded...it would be interesting to see if possible the status and fare basis of the flyers that were upgraded versus some of the less fortunates that might have been considered but were not.

Wow. Absolutely, 100% should be reported by OP. Hopefully OP got the names of the GAs involved and will include them in the report. Only by calling this BS out when we see it will DL begin enforcing their rules. It's ludicrous that OP paid for a B fare and should have been able to use the SWU but was denied it.

DHalltheway May 12, 2012 11:38 am


Originally Posted by mtkeller (Post 18556599)
Z availability goes out the window once it goes to the gate upgrade list. Assuming properly transferred from the Z wait list to the airport wait list (a big if!), then the GA should clear you into open J seats as there's not really any more Z inventory at that stage.

Am I correct to say that SWU upgrades can be processed by GA as long as it is YBM (for intl) and coded correctly? Will this be done only if Y is oversold? or if there is J available, could you be upgraded?

Interesting to learn about this.

mtkeller May 12, 2012 12:03 pm


Originally Posted by DHalltheway (Post 18561919)
Am I correct to say that SWU upgrades can be processed by GA as long as it is YBM (for intl) and coded correctly? Will this be done only if Y is oversold? or if there is J available, could you be upgraded?

Interesting to learn about this.

There's a same-day airport SWU waitlist you can use on DL flights. The GA's procedure is to clear those on the waitlist (by status and then fare class) into open J seats. No need for Y to be oversold. I'm not certain that being on the waitlist for Z properly gets one transferred to the airport waitlist.

HongKonger May 12, 2012 12:16 pm


Originally Posted by DHalltheway (Post 18561919)
Am I correct to say that SWU upgrades can be processed by GA as long as it is YBM (for intl) and coded correctly? Will this be done only if Y is oversold? or if there is J available, could you be upgraded?

Interesting to learn about this.

Not only can SWUs be processed by GAs, if there are any on the waitlist and J space is available after the flight goes to gate control, they SHOULD be (that is, are supposed to be) processed by the GAs. This should be done prior to oping-up or VDBing people since it may eliminate the need for either.

DHalltheway May 12, 2012 12:26 pm


Originally Posted by mtkeller (Post 18562029)
There's a same-day airport SWU waitlist you can use on DL flights. The GA's procedure is to clear those on the waitlist (by status and then fare class) into open J seats. No need for Y to be oversold. I'm not certain that being on the waitlist for Z properly gets one transferred to the airport waitlist.


Originally Posted by HongKonger (Post 18562097)
Not only can SWUs be processed by GAs, if there are any on the waitlist and J space is available after the flight goes to gate control, they SHOULD be (that is, are supposed to be) processed by the GAs. This should be done prior to oping-up or VDBing people since it may eliminate the need for either.

Interesting. Good to know.

How do you know if an SWU is coded correctly?

HongKonger May 12, 2012 1:02 pm


Originally Posted by DHalltheway (Post 18562146)
Interesting. Good to know.

How do you know if an SWU is coded correctly?

Call and ask a rep (or tweet @DeltaAssist) and ask how your SWU is coded. The response should be UP2A for a DM or UP2B for a PM. If it isn't, tell them they need to code it properly. Never tell them the answer you want to hear in advance as they may "confirm" without even checking.

rylan May 12, 2012 1:53 pm

It seems to be a little different (and easier) for some reason to get an SWU coded properly for international flights. They just have to active the priority waitlist and enter the SWU number into the PNR, and if it hasn't cleared by checkin then it should be automatically passed to the airport standby gate upgrade list. At this point, according to the SWU terms and Delta internal procedures, you are ahead of any non-rev upgrades or other operational upgrades.

In fact, from my experience if op-ups are needed the people on the SWU waitlist are usually given the upgrade without using the SWU.

As mentioned, you got hosed badly and I hope you report this.

MSPeconomist May 12, 2012 2:08 pm


Originally Posted by DHalltheway (Post 18561919)
Am I correct to say that SWU upgrades can be processed by GA as long as it is YBM (for intl) and coded correctly? Will this be done only if Y is oversold? or if there is J available, could you be upgraded?

Interesting to learn about this.

On the day of departure, any remaining BE seats should be given to people on Y B M fares using SWUs. This does not require any particular inventory class and is definitely before OPUPs or NRSA. It is last seat availability. We were promised this when SWU terms were redefined a bit around the time of the merger and the DL ATL DO. It is not the option of the GA to decide to OPUP others first for convenience or to give the remaining BE seats to nonrevs. The OP should complain and insist on an investigation in the strongest possible terms.

Personally, I would have demanded a redcoat before boarding and been on the phone to the DM line as well as the Atlanta resolution line until they closed the boarding door.

SoraAoi May 12, 2012 3:42 pm


Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 18562573)
On the day of departure, any remaining BE seats should be given to people on Y B M fares using SWUs. This does not require any particular inventory class and is definitely before OPUPs or NRSA. It is last seat availability. We were promised this when SWU terms were redefined a bit around the time of the merger and the DL ATL DO. It is not the option of the GA to decide to OPUP others first for convenience or to give the remaining BE seats to nonrevs. The OP should complain and insist on an investigation in the strongest possible terms.

Personally, I would have demanded a redcoat before boarding and been on the phone to the DM line as well as the Atlanta resolution line until they closed the boarding door.

You are absolutely right on everything, from how the UGs should be processed to what I should have done -- and normally I would probably do just as you said. One of those days: two sleepless nights, definitely properly coded SWU on the JFK feeder flight, did not suspect anything until I boarded and reflected on being had.

SoraAoi May 12, 2012 3:54 pm


Originally Posted by NewYorkMoscowFlyer64 (Post 18560984)
I was on the same flight as the original poster (May 7 (arr May 8) JFK to SVO).........I do not want to make the OP feel worse, but I also witnessed something I had never seen before on this flight. After everybody was seated but before the door was closed, the gate agent came onto the plane with a new boarding pass that he gave to the passenger in seat 17F and told this lucky fellow he was being upgraded. Shortly thereafter, a new passenger came on the plane to take seat 17F. I am guessing this is another one of the operational upgrades, but I cannot say for sure. The thing that I had never seen before was the gate agent come onto the plane so late/deep into the boarding process to upgrade an already boarded/fully situated passenger in coach on a tatl flight.

Also, this flight was clearly oversold in coach....when I checked in, I was asked to bid to be bumped to a different flight (and I posted about this somewhere else on this forum because I too checked Expert Flyer and was surprised to be asked to VDB on a flight for which tickets remained on sale)....my bid was not accepted. I asked the gate agent about the potential to accept a VDB and he noted my name and status (same as original poster but on a HKQ fare) and told me to wait to the side....but that was to no avail.

Sometimes on this forum, there are people who can look inside the system and see what happened on a particular flight. I am sure there were at least 2 Diamonds not upgraded...it would be interesting to see if possible the status and fare basis of the flyers that were upgraded versus some of the less fortunates that might have been considered but were not.

Now I am really fuming! Clearly, I was had. Actually, twice. I was told EC was full, and yet after 17F was moved up to BE, I remained in the f$$$ing coach seat! I also know for a fact that there were quite a few OP-UPs on that flight, and as a DM you also did not get one? Does not matter what your fare was, I doubt very much that there were 8 or so DMs, all on YBMs (and at least one DM on a B with a PU503 was not moved up either!). I am telling you, this is favoritism/nepotism/whatever-ism is the right word in this situation.

Anything and everything can be done for $$ in Russia, whether it is legal, semi-legal, or completely illegal. Just the way things work here, and can't imagine it not spilling into airline operations, in Russia and on Russian-bound flights handled by Russian agents. I should not be making blanket statements, and I am not accusing anyone of anything, but I have seen this scenario play out too many times on oversold flights. It may be tough to pull off under the normal circumstances, but on an oversold flight, even by one seat, GAs get nearly limitless discretion and can do as they please. DL closes its eyes to these ... "practices" as long as the company makes money, but it really, really smells bad.

SoraAoi May 12, 2012 3:57 pm


Originally Posted by rylan (Post 18562514)
It seems to be a little different (and easier) for some reason to get an SWU coded properly for international flights. They just have to active the priority waitlist and enter the SWU number into the PNR, and if it hasn't cleared by checkin then it should be automatically passed to the airport standby gate upgrade list. At this point, according to the SWU terms and Delta internal procedures, you are ahead of any non-rev upgrades or other operational upgrades.

In fact, from my experience if op-ups are needed the people on the SWU waitlist are usually given the upgrade without using the SWU.


As mentioned, you got hosed badly and I hope you report this.

Mixed experience on that. LAX agents have been pretty good not taking SWUs from me on oversold flights when I was OP-UPed, but JFK is a different story altogether.

HongKonger May 13, 2012 1:03 am


Originally Posted by SoraAoi (Post 18563000)
Now I am really fuming! Clearly, I was had. Actually, twice. I was told EC was full, and yet after 17F was moved up to BE, I remained in the f$$$ing coach seat! I also know for a fact that there were quite a few OP-UPs on that flight, and as a DM you also did not get one? Does not matter what your fare was, I doubt very much that there were 8 or so DMs, all on YBMs (and at least one DM on a B with a PU503 was not moved up either!). I am telling you, this is favoritism/nepotism/whatever-ism is the right word in this situation.

Anything and everything can be done for $$ in Russia, whether it is legal, semi-legal, or completely illegal. Just the way things work here, and can't imagine it not spilling into airline operations, in Russia and on Russian-bound flights handled by Russian agents. I should not be making blanket statements, and I am not accusing anyone of anything, but I have seen this scenario play out too many times on oversold flights. It may be tough to pull off under the normal circumstances, but on an oversold flight, even by one seat, GAs get nearly limitless discretion and can do as they please. DL closes its eyes to these ... "practices" as long as the company makes money, but it really, really smells bad.

So you are going to complain and mention by name as many people as you can, right?

DHalltheway May 13, 2012 1:51 am


Originally Posted by rylan (Post 18562514)
It seems to be a little different (and easier) for some reason to get an SWU coded properly for international flights. They just have to active the priority waitlist and enter the SWU number into the PNR, and if it hasn't cleared by checkin then it should be automatically passed to the airport standby gate upgrade list. At this point, according to the SWU terms and Delta internal procedures, you are ahead of any non-rev upgrades or other operational upgrades.

In fact, from my experience if op-ups are needed the people on the SWU waitlist are usually given the upgrade without using the SWU.

As mentioned, you got hosed badly and I hope you report this.


Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 18562573)
On the day of departure, any remaining BE seats should be given to people on Y B M fares using SWUs. This does not require any particular inventory class and is definitely before OPUPs or NRSA. It is last seat availability. We were promised this when SWU terms were redefined a bit around the time of the merger and the DL ATL DO. It is not the option of the GA to decide to OPUP others first for convenience or to give the remaining BE seats to nonrevs. The OP should complain and insist on an investigation in the strongest possible terms.

Personally, I would have demanded a redcoat before boarding and been on the phone to the DM line as well as the Atlanta resolution line until they closed the boarding door.

Interesting. Thanks for the history lesson and insight.

mnredfox May 13, 2012 2:05 am


Originally Posted by HongKonger (Post 18562286)
Call and ask a rep (or tweet @DeltaAssist) and ask how your SWU is coded. The response should be UP2A for a DM or UP2B for a PM. If it isn't, tell them they need to code it properly. Never tell them the answer you want to hear in advance as they may "confirm" without even checking.

I thought you could only really check at the airport?

HongKonger May 13, 2012 12:39 pm


Originally Posted by mnredfox (Post 18564892)
I thought you could only really check at the airport?

As soon as you ask to apply an SWU for waitlisting it is coded into the system. You can ask how it's coded.

MSPeconomist May 13, 2012 1:03 pm


Originally Posted by DHalltheway (Post 18564860)
Interesting. Thanks for the history lesson and insight.

Before the change, DL (paper) SWUs needed to confirm the upgrade before the gate and this did require Z upgrade inventory. On the day of departure, elites who had paid for expensive tickets and wanted to use SWUs would sit in the back when there were empty BE seats or NRSAs put into BE because seats were never released into Z inventory for the upgrades. This is not supposed to happen any more. Like on domestic upgrades, at the gate, it's a matter of having an empty seat in FC or BE, not the inventory code. Note that upgrades with miles cannot be done at the gate nor IIRC on the day of departure, so they must clear into upgrade inventory.

NewYorkMoscowFlyer64 May 14, 2012 6:58 am

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere...i am only on here infrequently.....my question is whether there is a way to get one of the posters here who sometimes can find out the a post-mortem of what happens on a particular flight to come on this thread and just let us know for this particular flight what sort of categories of flyers were seated in business on less than business fares and what highly ranked category flyers were seated in coach? While I feel the OP has a real beef here, I am not complaining about my position. However, I am always very curious to see these post-mortems and see what happened.

LedgeT May 14, 2012 8:00 am


Originally Posted by NewYorkMoscowFlyer64 (Post 18570809)
Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere...i am only on here infrequently.....my question is whether there is a way to get one of the posters here who sometimes can find out the a post-mortem of what happens on a particular flight to come on this thread and just let us know for this particular flight what sort of categories of flyers were seated in business on less than business fares and what highly ranked category flyers were seated in coach? While I feel the OP has a real beef here, I am not complaining about my position. However, I am always very curious to see these post-mortems and see what happened.

Flight was 07 May, OP was 11 May. The data that's accessible to those in the forum is usually only available for up to 24 hours after the flight. Time is critical.

Others with deeper access to DL systems can see the data for longer; however, don't expect those folks to come to the board with the info.

DHalltheway May 14, 2012 11:34 am

deleted

NewYorkMoscowFlyer64 May 15, 2012 12:45 am


Originally Posted by LedgeT (Post 18571100)
Flight was 07 May, OP was 11 May. The data that's accessible to those in the forum is usually only available for up to 24 hours after the flight. Time is critical.

Others with deeper access to DL systems can see the data for longer; however, don't expect those folks to come to the board with the info.

Point taken. Thank you.

Perhaps if OP writes in to Delta (I do not feel like I have grounds to write to Delta about the situation because I probably was not wronged according to Delta's existing policy whereas OP was probably wronged due to the fare differential and waitlist position), he/she can ask for this information and report back on here. The information must exist and I would be curious what reasons Delta would give for refusing to give the information to the OP.

The thing that is interesting to me is that if Delta is not itself dictating how the scarce/valuable Op Ups are allocated (through applying a company policy specifying allocation), then Delta is basically allowing its employees to sell Delta's own assets for personal gain. Of course, it is Delta's choice how it wishes to run its business and perhaps this is a reasonable perk to give to its employees, but, if frontline employees do have full discretion in awarding valuable Op Ups, there would appear to be nothing stopping them from just selling these Op Ups and pocketing the value (whether in cash or some other value). I am not placing judgments on this or whatever the practice/policy is.......it is just interesting to me that most business practices are purposefully transparent whereas this one particular area seems to be kept uniquely opaque/murky for unknown reasons.


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