Latest 717 rumor: DL deal in place
Mar 21, 2012, 5:39 pm
#76
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Mar 22, 2012, 2:05 am
#77
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I too am not a fan of the MD88. Narrow seats, small overhead bin space, walls curve in too much for the window seats. I suppose they are better than the CRJs, but i prefer a CR900 or EMB170 over the MD.
Mar 22, 2012, 5:09 am
#78
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Delta needs a more modern fleet without the old baggage like American Airlines has which is in bankruptcy right now and it will take a long time for it to come out of it.
American Airlines got stuck with older planes than Delta for the most part but Delta is profitable right now. So it is time for the Boeing 717's to come onto the fleet to replace some planes.
Delta Mainline fleet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet
Delta does not run Embraers or CRJ's or the other types as regional airlines run those planes for Delta.
Delta could use some of those 717 in Mainline to replace A319, DC9-50 and possibly some MD88's.
Yes you are right I didn't include the A319 in those. If the 717 is more fuel efficient and Delta can live with the range and pax of the 717 perhaps it could make sense. The A319 were acquired from NorthWest and Delta could move to an all Boeing fleet.
Another strategy would be to use the 717's at the new LaGuardia Hub and expand mainline aircraft so Delta would run flights on 717 out of LaGuardia instead of depending on regional carriers. In this senario it would displace regional airlines.
LaGuardia will start to get phased in very soon and will expand services over there. But existing schedules show they plan on at least at first using regional airlines but they could want to use the 717's to migrate to a Delta run show at LGA which I think is very possible as the 717's come in.
If 717s get allocated to airports like LGA, then the MD88s would still be around, and so will the A319's for awhile yet. The DC9-50's however will get phased out.
American Airlines got stuck with older planes than Delta for the most part but Delta is profitable right now. So it is time for the Boeing 717's to come onto the fleet to replace some planes.
Delta Mainline fleet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet
Delta does not run Embraers or CRJ's or the other types as regional airlines run those planes for Delta.
Delta could use some of those 717 in Mainline to replace A319, DC9-50 and possibly some MD88's.
Yes you are right I didn't include the A319 in those. If the 717 is more fuel efficient and Delta can live with the range and pax of the 717 perhaps it could make sense. The A319 were acquired from NorthWest and Delta could move to an all Boeing fleet.
Another strategy would be to use the 717's at the new LaGuardia Hub and expand mainline aircraft so Delta would run flights on 717 out of LaGuardia instead of depending on regional carriers. In this senario it would displace regional airlines.
LaGuardia will start to get phased in very soon and will expand services over there. But existing schedules show they plan on at least at first using regional airlines but they could want to use the 717's to migrate to a Delta run show at LGA which I think is very possible as the 717's come in.
If 717s get allocated to airports like LGA, then the MD88s would still be around, and so will the A319's for awhile yet. The DC9-50's however will get phased out.
Mar 22, 2012, 8:16 am
#79
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As Socrates notes, buying new aircraft makes the carrier more sensitive to increases in costs of capital.
Flying old aircraft leaves them more vulnerable to increases in the cost of fuel.
At some point on a fuel price curve and aircraft price curve, it's justified to fly older, moderately less efficient aircraft: 717s v. new 737NGs, for example. However, there is a fuel price at which point above-average fuel consumption makes less efficient aircraft worthless: DC-9s are economically obsolete even if they can fly just fine for another 10K hours.
If somebody has lease rates for 717/A319/737-700/319NEO/-700MAX and fuel burn per seat mile, I'm sure the collective wisdom of this forum could do the math.
Flying old aircraft leaves them more vulnerable to increases in the cost of fuel.
At some point on a fuel price curve and aircraft price curve, it's justified to fly older, moderately less efficient aircraft: 717s v. new 737NGs, for example. However, there is a fuel price at which point above-average fuel consumption makes less efficient aircraft worthless: DC-9s are economically obsolete even if they can fly just fine for another 10K hours.
If somebody has lease rates for 717/A319/737-700/319NEO/-700MAX and fuel burn per seat mile, I'm sure the collective wisdom of this forum could do the math.
Mar 22, 2012, 8:32 am
#80
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With Boeing slamming the door on the prospect of fleet commonality for 717 buyers that needed a larger aircraft, they killed interest in the line from DL, NW and AC, and effectively ended the program's long-term chances of success--and I'm not sure anyone in Boeing's senior management was too broken up about that.
Mar 22, 2012, 11:45 am
#81
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As Socrates notes, buying new aircraft makes the carrier more sensitive to increases in costs of capital.
Flying old aircraft leaves them more vulnerable to increases in the cost of fuel.
At some point on a fuel price curve and aircraft price curve, it's justified to fly older, moderately less efficient aircraft: 717s v. new 737NGs, for example. However, there is a fuel price at which point above-average fuel consumption makes less efficient aircraft worthless: DC-9s are economically obsolete even if they can fly just fine for another 10K hours.
If somebody has lease rates for 717/A319/737-700/319NEO/-700MAX and fuel burn per seat mile, I'm sure the collective wisdom of this forum could do the math.
Flying old aircraft leaves them more vulnerable to increases in the cost of fuel.
At some point on a fuel price curve and aircraft price curve, it's justified to fly older, moderately less efficient aircraft: 717s v. new 737NGs, for example. However, there is a fuel price at which point above-average fuel consumption makes less efficient aircraft worthless: DC-9s are economically obsolete even if they can fly just fine for another 10K hours.
If somebody has lease rates for 717/A319/737-700/319NEO/-700MAX and fuel burn per seat mile, I'm sure the collective wisdom of this forum could do the math.
The 717 was killed by lack of a larger and longer range version and the commonality madness that bought us still-born white elephants like the A318 and 737-600. The A318 and 737-600 were both a shrink too far and are just too inefficient (especially the A318).
Mar 22, 2012, 12:57 pm
#82
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Delta has flown both A319s (12F 114Y) and 737-700s (12F 112y) pre Economy Comfort, against AirTran's 12F 105Y. That's a very marginal difference in seat count. I'm ready to trust their math on fuel burn per seat mile or trip cost v. 717s on this.
Mar 22, 2012, 2:04 pm
#83
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Equivalently equipped, (same seat pitch, F seats, etc) the 717 will have roughly 15 less seats the 319 or 737-700. It has a lower profile and more efficient, lower thrust engines. It also has its engines on the tail where they belong for better aerodynamics. The only situation I can see the 319 or 737-700 approaching the 717 in CASM at the 717’s max passenger loads would be on longer routes where the 717’s lower ceiling would be a larger factor.
Mar 22, 2012, 3:36 pm
#84
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Equivalently equipped, (same seat pitch, F seats, etc) the 717 will have roughly 15 less seats the 319 or 737-700. It has a lower profile and more efficient, lower thrust engines. It also has its engines on the tail where they belong for better aerodynamics. The only situation I can see the 319 or 737-700 approaching the 717 in CASM at the 717’s max passenger loads would be on longer routes where the 717’s lower ceiling would be a larger factor.
May 21, 2012, 10:09 pm
#85
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DL trying to acquire WN's 717's
....... "Analysts have speculated that Delta is among the interested buyers of the 88 Boeing 717s that Southwest Airlines acquired when it purchased AirTran Holdings Inc. last year. Southwest has said repeatedly that it would like to get rid of the planes as soon as it can." ......
http://m.startribune.com/business/?id=152401545&c=y
http://m.startribune.com/business/?id=152401545&c=y
Last edited by RSSrsvp; May 22, 2012 at 7:01 am Reason: I clarified the title
May 21, 2012, 10:16 pm
#86
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....... "Analysts have speculated that Delta is among the interested buyers of the 88 Boeing 717s that Southwest Airlines acquired when it purchased AirTran Holdings Inc. last year. Southwest has said repeatedly that it would like to get rid of the planes as soon as it can." ......
http://m.startribune.com/business/?id=152401545&c=y
http://m.startribune.com/business/?id=152401545&c=y
717's are newer jets not produced anymore but have no commonality with other types.
May 21, 2012, 10:21 pm
#87
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Just what DL needs...yet another aircraft type for pilots and mechanics to learn and get certified on, for all FAs to learn, and for DL to maintain parts inventory. OTOH, DL has a fleet that allows they to select almost any number of seats (that is, a "continuous variable with no gaps in its range) to assign to a given route. The ultimate rightsizing at great cost.
May 21, 2012, 11:35 pm
#89
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The 717 shares a lot of basic part-components with the DC-9, MD-80, and MD-90. Also, once DL completes the cockpit-mods on the MD-88s and 90s: it will have the same cockpit.
Essentially, it's a DC-9-40 with new engines, updated avionics, and a -34 wing.
Essentially, it's a DC-9-40 with new engines, updated avionics, and a -34 wing.
May 21, 2012, 11:38 pm
#90
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