Delta FA's to remain union free

Old Nov 19, 11, 4:34 pm
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Originally Posted by itsaboutthejourney View Post
I'd rather you direct your scorn to the AFA Union and it's leadership, not the rank & file PMNW FA's. I'm happy they are getting raises and freed from a union that didn't always act in the best interests of its members, Company and customers.
^ I think it's an issue of the enemy you know vs. the enemy you don't. For example, has there ever being a significant, internal effort on the part of DL FAs to unionize? None of these efforts were successful, nor were the votes as close IIRC. The AFA admits it has spent millions of dollars, from their members' dues, trying to get into Delta. Were those efforts motivated by an outspoken need for better working conditions from inside the DL ranks, or were they motivated by the potential financial payoff?

I can only hope the language and attitude of the AFA press release is not typical of their general membership, and everyone can move on via a smooth transition. Unfortunately, I expect there will be bumps in the road coming from both sides in an ongoing us vs. them debate. I also expect we'll see too many FT posts about "can you believe what I overheard the FAs griping to each other?" in the future. As our kindergarten teachers used to say, everybody play nice!
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Old Nov 19, 11, 4:37 pm
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Originally Posted by PRWeezer View Post
^ I think it's an issue of the enemy you know vs. the enemy you don't. For example, has there ever being a significant, internal effort on the part of DL FAs to unionize? None of these efforts were successful, nor were the votes as close IIRC. The AFA admits it has spent millions of dollars, from their members' dues, trying to get into Delta. Were those efforts motivated by an outspoken need for better working conditions from inside the DL ranks, or were they motivated by the potential financial payoff?

I can only hope the language and attitude of the AFA press release is not typical of their general membership, and everyone can move on via a smooth transition. Unfortunately, I expect there will be bumps in the road coming from both sides in an ongoing us vs. them debate. I also expect we'll see too many FT posts about "can you believe what I overheard the FAs griping to each other?" in the future. As our kindergarten teachers used to say, everybody play nice!
Since the new rules kicked in, this will make Delta a fabulous carrier from JFK and LGA. It will be exciting for the new Terminals to kick in as well. Lots of good stuff to look forward to from this carrier. Union baggage is still ever present on some other carriers which are not as well run right now.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 4:48 pm
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I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do remember the reputation Delta USED to have in the labor market. Back when I was in college it was a really sterling one, with satisfied employees and tons of local coverage when they bought that "Spirit of Delta" plane (which must be getting long in the tooth by now, if they're still flying it).

Given all that's happened since, starting with the Mullin regime, I think the FAs are crazy not to unionize. The union doesn't have to be confrontational necessarily (just look at Southwest), but it's just too clear that depending on management benevolence these days is a foolish gamble. Top management can and do change abruptly (Mullin showed that, someone from outside the culture), and without workers having leverage the shareholders and Wall Street may push theirs. Pilots have done a better job than other employee groups in "giving what they need, not what they want" because of the union, even though it got them a lot of petty resentment.

Without a union the best protection the FAs would have is what unions at other airlines negotiate, as that has been a major factor keeping Delta in check. If all airlines were like DL, even more of the cuts would be coming out of employees' hides than are already, and you'd have upper management and Wall Street openly declaring a race to the bottom.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 4:48 pm
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Originally Posted by adamj023 View Post
Since the new rules kicked in, this will make Delta a fabulous carrier from JFK and LGA. It will be exciting for the new Terminals to kick in as well. Lots of good stuff to look forward to from this carrier. Union baggage is still ever present on some other carriers which are not as well run right now.
http://www.qchron.com/news/union-thr...cc4c03286.html

Locally in Queens, some children will experience their first union strike in life. While its unrelated to Delta (which is an airline which serves this market), it is just an example how these thugs need to be stopped.

Kudos to Delta for a good job and preventing situations like these from occuring in the first place.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 5:04 pm
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Originally Posted by adamj023 View Post
Locally in Queens, some children will experience their first union strike in life. While its unrelated to Delta (which is an airline which serves this market), it is just an example how these thugs need to be stopped.
They aren't going to just roll over and have their job taken away, and it's a bit naive to expect otherwise. OTOH, compared to school bus drivers, private-sector unions have to fight a bigger greed factor.

For a cautionary tale of where Delta FAs could be headed, just look at ValuJet (which was folded into AirTran) and the early treatment there.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 8:41 pm
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Originally Posted by RustyC View Post
...
Back when I was in college it was a really sterling one, with satisfied employees and tons of local coverage when they bought that "Spirit of Delta" plane (which must be getting long in the tooth by now, if they're still flying it).
...
OT, but the Spirit now resides at the Delta Museum at Delta's HQ in ATL. It's a great place to spend a few hours learning about the history of DL, if you're in to that kind of stuff--they also have a pretty cool gift shop with some awesome DL swag! http://www.deltamuseum.org

-Travis
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Old Nov 19, 11, 8:47 pm
  #82  
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Originally Posted by adamj023 View Post
My business goes to non unionzed organizations as much as possible.

WTG DELTA ^

When I was younger I took a college course and the professors were unionized. We the students knew more than the professors and the class was unionized and they went on strike.

Ever since that time I have been totally anti union for the rest of my life.

I try to as much as possible use non union labor and businesses. If there are 2 business models and one has union and one is non union I will always go with the non union. With this move Delta regains my trust and they are fully showing the corporate culture is more alligned to the Delta culture than Northwest which is and has been far superior.

^^^^^^
^ I also try to support non-union business as much as possible.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 8:59 pm
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Originally Posted by DiverDave View Post
When you acquire a company, you acquire its obligations and contracts. When DL and NWA merged, Delta became responsible for all NWA contracts. That included labor contracts.

The AFA was entitled to have a representation election. The vote was quite close. I'm rather stunned that the interference charges were dismissed, given that the current administration and its appointees are quite friendly to organized labor.

In any case, it is good news for the PMNW FAs that will be getting substantial raises, though they may not be as happy with having reserve days.

David
Whether the company acquiring another company is bound to take over lobour contract obligations without any modification is a matter of negotiation. The combined set of employees were given a chance to express their collective will which rejected unionisation. The legal reality is that DL did not emply coercive tactics. If DL did, the AFA failed to prove that.
In general, not every aspect of a contract is binding. For example, I could have a contract with an employee that requires them to to be my slave. It would not be enforceable. Or I could blsckmsil my employer into signing a contract that I could not be fired under any circumstances. Of course, the labour being acquired would like to have their contract honoured by the new owner. That's about it. The party with which contract was entered into no longer exists.

I am not against unions. I also believe the issue being discussed is a matter between PMNW FA's and Delta. What we believe or want is irrelevant.

Last edited by Yaatri; Nov 19, 11 at 9:23 pm
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Old Nov 20, 11, 12:52 am
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Originally Posted by ClipperDelta View Post
Actually, not correct. The number of FAs on "A" Days ("A" stands for "Availability") varies from month to month, base to base. It depends on the amount of flying for the base that month, the number of FAs on sick or vacation leave, etc. Usually, the most senior and most of the middle seniority people never get A days. Can't remember the percentages, but I am tempted to say, IIRC, only the bottom third or less of a base gets A days.
Overall, the A days system is great for the junior folks because it allows them to actually get a "line". These junior folks at PMNW or AA or UA are pretty much on reserve for the first decade of their career, whereas a first-year hire at Delta can already hold a line (and plan their lives), while their 'reserve' requirements are limited to 3-6 days a month. It also doesn't hurt the senior mamas or the middle-of-the-pack either because they will never get A days. The only ones who may view it negatively are those sitting at the border (say at the 60-80th percentile) who may not have had reserve days at PMNW, but may be given A days for some months of the year...
Thanks for clarifying...most of my information comes from PMNW friends, who aren't as versed in what the PMDL rules are, etc. - I'll admit most of my information (on both sides) is coming from the PMNW workforce and what they hear (whether or not it's 100% true, or what someone who is trying to convince them to one side or the other is a whole separate issue...).
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Old Nov 20, 11, 2:05 am
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Does anyone know how this will impact the intra-Asia flying? Iirc, the AFA had clauses in their contract that required x number of AFA FAs on each flight. I wonder if this will change now.
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Old Nov 20, 11, 2:50 am
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Originally Posted by n301dp View Post

3Cforme--without checking my RLA "bible," that minimum number in a normal representation effort is 35% of the combined workforce. I don't think that number applies in a merger/takeover of two different sized carriers--once a "single carrier" declaration is made by the NMB, they will usually call an election.
The relative size of the acquired union-represented workforce is pertinent; below that 35% threshhold the AFA would have needed to secure union cards from sufficient numbers of origin-DL FAs to be able to request an election.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...ares%20Charges
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Old Nov 20, 11, 4:46 am
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Originally Posted by adamj023 View Post
Why would someone PM you and not me since I have always been steadfastly anti union.
Well, the last time we had this discussion on the board I posted a rather critical assessment of the NW FA's and why I felt the union served as a shield for mediocrity. I received a PM from someone who told me exactly how much physical harm they would do to me if they ever met me in person. Always the mature road: if you can't win your case on merit, threaten physical violence.
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Old Nov 20, 11, 9:04 am
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Originally Posted by SOBE ER DOC View Post
Well, the last time we had this discussion on the board I posted a rather critical assessment of the NW FA's and why I felt the union served as a shield for mediocrity. I received a PM from someone who told me exactly how much physical harm they would do to me if they ever met me in person. Always the mature road: if you can't win your case on merit, threaten physical violence.
And the really sad thing is the person that PM'd you (assuming it was a PMNW FA) doesn't realize YOU pay their salary.
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Old Nov 20, 11, 9:06 am
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Originally Posted by SOBE ER DOC View Post
Well, the last time we had this discussion on the board I posted a rather critical assessment of the NW FA's and why I felt the union served as a shield for mediocrity. I received a PM from someone who told me exactly how much physical harm they would do to me if they ever met me in person. Always the mature road: if you can't win your case on merit, threaten physical violence.
I did something similar when Verizon went on strike. I was not threatened with force however but it was clear others did not like my viewpoints.

Needless to say they resolved the strike. Remember, there are more of us than them and any threat against us and we can have these folks who try to take us out, taken out themselves if and when necessary before they even get close enough to try when there is imminent danger. I didn't mean to take this thread to the political level however.

In the case of Delta, clearly the outcome was the right outcome, and those corrupt political appointees never saw the light of day. You know who was at fault and why.

There have been instances where the line has been crossed and people have been hurt or even killed in regards to people standing up for those trying to do the right thing.

Gotta give credit here where credit is due, which was done. Nothing more to say on this thread really.

Last edited by adamj023; Nov 20, 11 at 9:14 am
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Old Nov 20, 11, 9:31 am
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Originally Posted by NWA/Deltaflygirl View Post
I for one will be glad when it's ALL settled, no more 'premerger this or that.' I have friends and co-workers who were once NW Oreint, Pan Am, and Hugues Air west, and a myriad of other Airlines that are now part of Delta, and while it's great to be proud of where you came from (I still sport my office NWA pin proudly) it shouldn't hinder us from going forward as what we are - ONE great airline.
^^^^^^
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