The entire FT demographic is not made up of MR'ers. Also, interestingly and surprisingly, every time I pay for J/F the service is no better! I can just donate money to Delta, I suppose, if thats what you are suggesting.

Further, all of the FCM has been whacky. Selling F tickets cheaper than Y tickets, or having low FC award (45k miles) available, when only medium or higher (40 or 60k miles) Y award tickets are available. Lets see, non status traveler gets F seat with three free bags for only 5k miles more. Depending on how many bags are checked, thats lost revenue.

Does this count? It's $170 cheaper to book FC than EC. LOL.

4:10PM 5:35PM CLT

Economy (M)
Upgrade Eligibility
$500.80
total price
Pay with Miles eligible

First (P)
$333.80
total price
Pay with Miles eligible
DL 826
Nonstop1h 25m
View Seats
Details
5:25PM 6:55PM CLT

Economy (M)
Upgrade Eligibility
$500.80
total price
Pay with Miles eligible

First (P)
$333.80
total price
Pay with Miles eligible
DL 2266
Nonstop1h 30m

I don't see that at all. If fares begin to rise, people will still be price-loyal. The only way to change the ratio as you suggest it to increase the incentive to be brand-loyal (and therefore the cost to the consumer of breaking that loyalty). And the way to increase brand-loyalty incentive is with bigger loyalty perks.

The airlines don't necessarily see it that way. UA in particular has gone on the record stating that they don't want passengers loyal to MileagePlus, but to United as an airline instead.

"I want you to be loyal because you know United will use common sense to take care of me."

Big thread on it here: United officially speaks...

This actually makes a lot of sense (at least domestically).

Delta's problem is that they have set the expectation of medallions (especially DM/PM) to be that they will have "complementary upgrades with priority" which is obviously not in Delta's best interest if they can instead monetize FC.

Personally, I would rather them improve/expand the domestic EC product and instead offer that as a complementary upgrade, with elite discounts (perhaps progressive) to BUY up to FC.

This would probably provide a better FC product, better EC product, more revenue, and happier customers. And it would be more congruent with Delta's revenue ambitions too. Delta's marketing/RM inconsistency is the biggest thing holding them back from having BRAND loyal customers.

And AMAZINGLY, DL doesn't forbid an "elite" from purchasing the P fare. What a nice luxury to have two fares drawn on two different products, with two different sets of restrictions, with the lower fare being a better cabin. Buy it and enjoy it. Good for DL, good for the customer who is willing to sacrifice flexibilty.

Don't hit 'em with reality Often1. This is FT where whippin' up the crazy is so much-more fun.

Success! Got an upgrade SFO-MSP as a plat!

I was booked on the Sunday SFO-DTW flight on at 1pm. Of course, it was F4 at the window, so no advance upgrades. When I checked in on Saturday, it was down to F1 and as the hours ticked by I evolved into #8 of 14 on the waitlist for the one seat.

So at 325am Sunday morning I called and SDC'ed onto the 625am flight SFO-MSP. At the airport, I was 3rd on the upgrade waitlist, with 2 seats free, which were then processed. I let everybody else board, then went to the GA and said that I was holding back because I was top of the upgrade list, in case there was a no-show or a misconnect. She said that I should board, and would come get me if the one person in first who had checked in, but still not boarded, never came, so I did, and so did she.

I had the omelet.

All of this is really very simple.

Bah. You don't even know the guy, and you decide he/she is a "small minded boss". Said boss is a Delta customer. Delta customers pay the bills.

A terrible example. Your suspicion. Really. :rolleyes:

Sorry, but it's a real example from a credible poster. Of course it had nothing to do with an upgrade. It had to do with Delta leaving $500 on the table. If that happens enough, we're into the millions.

This argument is getting silly. Hardly anybody in this thread is an economist, and it's readily apparent that hardly anybody really knows anything about the airline business as a business.

I will give you a clue. Businesses cannot continually shrink their way to prosperity. Virgin America, JetBlue, Frontier, and Southwest will continue to nibble at the core routes. The GFC killed profits on international routes, and the problems in Europe and Asia continue to erode margins and revenues. Don't believe me - just do a bit of research into routes being dropped out of JFK and ATL this year. And the China route authorities that Delta has handed back to DoT. And the saga of the Haneda slots.

This thread has been responsible for 2 of the 3 members of my ignored user list. Now it's 3 out of 4. ^ Have a wonderful day! :D

David

This argument is getting silly. Hardly anybody in this thread is an economist, and it's readily apparent that hardly anybody really knows anything about the airline business as a business.

That statement can apply to almost any thread of FT. "If they continue to not give me my upgrade, they are going to go ch 11 again" (paraphrase of course).


This thread has been responsible for 2 of the 3 members of my ignored user list. Now it's 3 out of 4. Have a wonderful day!

David

LOL. 8th grade relived? I don't like what you are saying....I'm going to stick my head in the sand and pretend you don't exist. LMFAO!

One thing that is missing from most of these arguments based on anecdotal fare searches is the fact that the P fare is often MUCH-more restricted than the coach fare being offered. Apples and oranges are being compared, yet being argued as equals.

Had my first missed UG this year, on a B fare. I was #2 (with two seats available), RDU-DTW Monday morning. The plane loaded completely full with the exeption of the two open FC seats. Being in a casted leg, I boarded with the "Sky". As the doors began to close, two non-revs showed up and the GA moved two people from the way back (appeared to be non-medalliaons) to fill the FC seats. Maybe they were on a full "Y" fare, but it seemed like a Shena. Today I am sitting on the UG request list as a DM on full Y fare two days out for a flight MSP-RDU, with 6 of 12 open FC seats.

Talking with one of my fav GA in RDU, she mentioned that she had a Sun night flight where 14 of 16 FC seats were UGd at the gate. I understand the FCM, but some of this has gone to extreme, as with the case of booking a full Y and still being on the request list with two days out.

Where did you get "small minded" from? What sane person wouldn't prefer First to Coach for less money?

My point is that FCM is being implemented stupidly; if DL added a pricing rule that "F costs at least $50 more than Y" it would get more money in the odd cases, and the same the rest of the time.

The issue did have nothing to do with any UG, it had to do with clear underpricing of F.

Delta shows two columns, Coach and First. If I don't mind restrictions, then Delta showing me an expensive non-restricted Coach seat and a less-expensive restricted First seat looks, to me, like First is cheaper, even though Coach has some benefits I don't care about.

Suppose there were a $600 First fare, and an $800 Coach fare that allowed 87 checked bags free. Would you be arguing that they shouldn't be compared because if you're moving and own more suitcases than any human, the Coach fare would be a better deal?

I'm guessing this is an example of FCM:

AUS-ATL this Sunday (May 13). All 6 AUS-ATL flights that day show a one-way first class fare of $444.80 (P). The 4 pm flight has the most expensive coach fare of $394.80 (Q), and only a couple of Y seats show as open. So if you need to go on that flight, you can ride in F for only $50 more. Most other flights offer a $138.80 T fare. Is it a coincidence that the 4 pm is the only one showing V0, and that 10 of the 16 seats in F remain empty? I think not.