Delta denies boarding based on fuzzy visa info
Mar 5, 2010, 12:49 pm
#76
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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It did not matter whether I had a ticket out of Thailand within 30 days approved by the currently alive former US presidents and zombie Reagan. I was told both by the check-in counter at GNV and Delta Customer Support that it does not matter. If you have a ticket for >30 days, you MUST have a visa in advance. No way around it.
edit: On the phone, when I brought up the onward ticket method they thought it was just kooky and stupid that I would ever think I could do that.
Last edited by brenkarch; Mar 5, 2010 at 12:54 pm Reason: .
Mar 5, 2010, 12:53 pm
#77
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He should have purchased it and politely stood his ground. According to the poster above you, he did need to show an onward ticket before he had any ground to stand on.
Mar 5, 2010, 1:01 pm
#79
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This, basically.
It did not matter whether I had a ticket out of Thailand within 30 days approved by the currently alive former US presidents and zombie Reagan. I was told both by the check-in counter at GNV and Delta Customer Support that it does not matter. If you have a ticket for >30 days, you MUST have a visa in advance. No way around it.
edit: On the phone, when I brought up the onward ticket method they thought it was just kooky and stupid that I would ever think I could do that.
It did not matter whether I had a ticket out of Thailand within 30 days approved by the currently alive former US presidents and zombie Reagan. I was told both by the check-in counter at GNV and Delta Customer Support that it does not matter. If you have a ticket for >30 days, you MUST have a visa in advance. No way around it.
edit: On the phone, when I brought up the onward ticket method they thought it was just kooky and stupid that I would ever think I could do that.
Mar 5, 2010, 1:03 pm
#80
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 17
I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with a Customer Service Supervisor. His position was that Delta is obligated to deny boarding to ALL passengers ticketed for more than 30 days to Thailand. I told him that this policy of Delta's contradicts and supercedes the laws of Thailand. He claims that the Thai government communicates this policy to the airlines and thus it has equal force. He refused to budge even an inch, but gave me the number of corporate customer care.
I could understand if the issue hinged on the onward ticket. But Delta is basically saying they are required by the Thai goverment to deny boarding to ANY passenger on more than a 30-day return without a visa. This makes no sense. I can only imagine how many people they would have to deny on a DAILY basis if this policy were implemented. And what about open-jaw or round-the-world tickets? I asked all this to the supervisor, and his answers were contradictory. I also asked him why, when I flew to Europe on a 5-month return, no one asked for visa entry before boarding. He had no answer.
I'm off to call corporate customer care. If anyone has ideas for how to resolve this, let me know!
I could understand if the issue hinged on the onward ticket. But Delta is basically saying they are required by the Thai goverment to deny boarding to ANY passenger on more than a 30-day return without a visa. This makes no sense. I can only imagine how many people they would have to deny on a DAILY basis if this policy were implemented. And what about open-jaw or round-the-world tickets? I asked all this to the supervisor, and his answers were contradictory. I also asked him why, when I flew to Europe on a 5-month return, no one asked for visa entry before boarding. He had no answer.
I'm off to call corporate customer care. If anyone has ideas for how to resolve this, let me know!
Mar 5, 2010, 1:03 pm
#81
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Airines, if they bring someone in who overstays, are responsible for doing the deportation flight at their own expense, by international agreement. Delta does not want to risk a full fare deportation flight on you down the road. It's their liability, not yours. Your visa says 30 days and your reservations say 45..can you really blame them?
And waltinsocal, dude, you took that *way* too seriously... and personally! He's talking about how a dead president returning from beyond the grave still wouldn't have helped.
But why am I not surprised? Everything bad that ever happens to anyone is their own fault, apparently.
Last edited by judolphin; Mar 5, 2010 at 1:11 pm
Mar 5, 2010, 1:05 pm
#82
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Hi there!
This is the OP again ... I had no idea that this would generate so many replies so quickly! I checked back this morning expecting 1 or 2 replies. Thanks for all the helpful advice. I spent most of yesterday being disappointed and haven't got up the energy yet to fight back. But I will read carefully through these options and will try to let you know what happens!
To answer some questions: I had an onward itinerary, but I *didn't* actually have the flight paid for and booked (i.e. etkt #). Since Thai immigration doesn't care in 99.99% of cases, I figured I could do it from Bangkok. But I do have a smartphone. So standing there in line I went to the website and was about to purchase the ticket, to give the agent a valid etkt#. But the agent didn't care. He said that even a confirmed onward ticket wouldn't change a thing. Over 30 days = visa required, in his book.
Also, I was checking in at a small regional airport, Gainesville, FL. The itinerary was Gainesville - ATL - ICN - BKK. I seriously wonder if an ATL agent would have made the same mistake.
Again, I will read carefully through the postings and let you know what happens today!
This is the OP again ... I had no idea that this would generate so many replies so quickly! I checked back this morning expecting 1 or 2 replies. Thanks for all the helpful advice. I spent most of yesterday being disappointed and haven't got up the energy yet to fight back. But I will read carefully through these options and will try to let you know what happens!
To answer some questions: I had an onward itinerary, but I *didn't* actually have the flight paid for and booked (i.e. etkt #). Since Thai immigration doesn't care in 99.99% of cases, I figured I could do it from Bangkok. But I do have a smartphone. So standing there in line I went to the website and was about to purchase the ticket, to give the agent a valid etkt#. But the agent didn't care. He said that even a confirmed onward ticket wouldn't change a thing. Over 30 days = visa required, in his book.
Also, I was checking in at a small regional airport, Gainesville, FL. The itinerary was Gainesville - ATL - ICN - BKK. I seriously wonder if an ATL agent would have made the same mistake.
Again, I will read carefully through the postings and let you know what happens today!
By the way, I'm not surprised... the average IQ of UF grads/students isn't all that high
(I jest, I jest)I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with a Customer Service Supervisor. His position was that Delta is obligated to deny boarding to ALL passengers ticketed for more than 30 days to Thailand. I told him that this policy of Delta's contradicts and supercedes the laws of Thailand. He claims that the Thai government communicates this policy to the airlines and thus it has equal force. He refused to budge even an inch, but gave me the number of corporate customer care.
I could understand if the issue hinged on the onward ticket. But Delta is basically saying they are required by the Thai goverment to deny boarding to ANY passenger on more than a 30-day return without a visa. This makes no sense. I can only imagine how many people they would have to deny on a DAILY basis if this policy were implemented. And what about open-jaw or round-the-world tickets? I asked all this to the supervisor, and his answers were contradictory. I also asked him why, when I flew to Europe on a 5-month return, no one asked for visa entry before boarding. He had no answer.
I'm off to call corporate customer care. If anyone has ideas for how to resolve this, let me know!
I could understand if the issue hinged on the onward ticket. But Delta is basically saying they are required by the Thai goverment to deny boarding to ANY passenger on more than a 30-day return without a visa. This makes no sense. I can only imagine how many people they would have to deny on a DAILY basis if this policy were implemented. And what about open-jaw or round-the-world tickets? I asked all this to the supervisor, and his answers were contradictory. I also asked him why, when I flew to Europe on a 5-month return, no one asked for visa entry before boarding. He had no answer.
I'm off to call corporate customer care. If anyone has ideas for how to resolve this, let me know!
Last edited by judolphin; Mar 5, 2010 at 1:30 pm
Mar 5, 2010, 1:15 pm
#83
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That comes back to a question I had posted above and for which I do not know the answer, on an itinerary such as this, is the first airport in fact the "gatekeeper" to insure that the passenger has the proper documents to fly internationally? I think it is, otherwise DL or any other airline could wind up with pax at international departure airports with insufficient travel docs if they had not already been checked at the feeder airport. I don't think any airline is going to consider the flight to ATL as just a domestic flight if it is part of an international itinerary. That's why I suggested that the pax might have to purchase a separate ticket to ATL just to get there, and then sort it out later.
Mar 5, 2010, 1:40 pm
#84
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Delta is totally wrong in the OP's case.
There are numerous examples of travel for which someone would travel to BKK, not have a return ticket from BKK within 30 days, and not have a visa. One example is travel to BKK, then by land to, say, Hong Kong, and then, 60 days later, a flight back to the US on any airline. By Delta's rule this would invalidate the outbound. Wrong. Happens all the time.
Any sort of planned itinerary out of Thailand for more than 30 days, regardless of how the traveller returns to the US is totally outside the purview of Delta. The company is flat out wrong.
I live close to GNV but rarely fly out of there (not much more time to JAX, DAB, MCO or TPA, and much better fares). I do use GNV for award travel however and the counter personnel are ASA, not Delta. (At least they were.) To them travel to SFO was exotic; they barely knew international cities.
There are numerous examples of travel for which someone would travel to BKK, not have a return ticket from BKK within 30 days, and not have a visa. One example is travel to BKK, then by land to, say, Hong Kong, and then, 60 days later, a flight back to the US on any airline. By Delta's rule this would invalidate the outbound. Wrong. Happens all the time.
Any sort of planned itinerary out of Thailand for more than 30 days, regardless of how the traveller returns to the US is totally outside the purview of Delta. The company is flat out wrong.
I live close to GNV but rarely fly out of there (not much more time to JAX, DAB, MCO or TPA, and much better fares). I do use GNV for award travel however and the counter personnel are ASA, not Delta. (At least they were.) To them travel to SFO was exotic; they barely knew international cities.
Mar 5, 2010, 1:49 pm
#85
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This is a particularly scary contention. To all the documentation holier-than-thous, your view of when an air carrier should accept someone makes no sense whatsoever. Many people, particularly in Southeast Asia, drive or jet around from country to country. Particularly on a US passport this presents no problems whatsoever. It's also common to purchase a ticket a few days before flying, particularly given how cheap and easy southeast asia's LCCs are.
If the more-documented-than-thou crowd was right, only people with documented onward air travel or trips less than X days would be allowed to fly anywhere. It would be impossible to fly into a country, while planning on driving or bussing it to another country, fly on an LCC, and then returning to fly out of the original country. Anyone who flies oneway would not be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they would leave by the proper time. But yet purchase the fake Y ticket and refund it five minutes later fixes the problem?
This literally makes no sense and even a well-meaning DL agent should have the common sense to realize that OPs scenario happens about 100 times a second, and he should be allowed to fly. The agent (and OP) should keep escalating the issue to find someone who will give it the green light. If the World's Premier Global Airline can't handle people who occasionally travel outside Atlanta, find a new airline.
Even if the agent wanted to enforce what s/he saw as the letter of the law, OP's purchase of an onward ticket then and there ends the discussion. Delta has no leg whatsoever to stand on.
If the more-documented-than-thou crowd was right, only people with documented onward air travel or trips less than X days would be allowed to fly anywhere. It would be impossible to fly into a country, while planning on driving or bussing it to another country, fly on an LCC, and then returning to fly out of the original country. Anyone who flies oneway would not be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they would leave by the proper time. But yet purchase the fake Y ticket and refund it five minutes later fixes the problem?
This literally makes no sense and even a well-meaning DL agent should have the common sense to realize that OPs scenario happens about 100 times a second, and he should be allowed to fly. The agent (and OP) should keep escalating the issue to find someone who will give it the green light. If the World's Premier Global Airline can't handle people who occasionally travel outside Atlanta, find a new airline.
Even if the agent wanted to enforce what s/he saw as the letter of the law, OP's purchase of an onward ticket then and there ends the discussion. Delta has no leg whatsoever to stand on.
The reality was that LH (separate ticket, never presented to DL/NW) flew us IST-MUC-WAW-MUC-VIE.
Oh wait, we're still not in Berlin yet!
The day before we left Vienna we bought train tickets to Berlin.
Mar 5, 2010, 2:18 pm
#86
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There was a problem with our ticket at the GNV check-in counter and a supervisor was called over, who, after a minute of looking at our information told us we "could not get on the plane without a visa." I asked if I could show proof of onward travel within 30 days of entry, then would I be able to board. No. He slammed his fist down, yelled "YOU ARE NOT GETTING ON THIS PLANE WITHOUT A VISA!" and walked away. There was no one at check-in for the next hour to help us as it was 30 minutes before take-off and the next flight out of GNV was in three hours.
Mar 5, 2010, 2:20 pm
#87
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 17
STILL no luck
I just spent about 50 minutes on the phone with corporate customer care in Atlanta. At first he was very nice and agreed to get me on a flight tomorrow, but the deeper he dug the more he defended Delta's actions. He was nicer but in the end he came around to the exact same conclusion as everyone else there. He claimed Delta does IDB for all pax with tickets more than 30 days return to Thailand w/o a visa. This is clearly bunk but I wish there were some way to prove it.
In the end he said my best bet was to completely rebook a new itinerary that showed a *Delta* or Delta partner flight out of Thailand within 30 days. I asked if it had to be the same itinerary. He said it would be safest to do that. Basically he punted me back to reservations and said I should restate my case there, and gave me no guarantee I wouldn't be denied again. Ugh.
The only concession was that he gave me vouchers to cover the $400 ($200 x 2 pax) lost on the cancellation fee. Cold comfort.
Any ideas how to proceed? Is there anyone higher up to talk to? He claimed the only way to escalate beyond him was in writing.
In the end he said my best bet was to completely rebook a new itinerary that showed a *Delta* or Delta partner flight out of Thailand within 30 days. I asked if it had to be the same itinerary. He said it would be safest to do that. Basically he punted me back to reservations and said I should restate my case there, and gave me no guarantee I wouldn't be denied again. Ugh.
The only concession was that he gave me vouchers to cover the $400 ($200 x 2 pax) lost on the cancellation fee. Cold comfort.
Any ideas how to proceed? Is there anyone higher up to talk to? He claimed the only way to escalate beyond him was in writing.
Mar 5, 2010, 2:21 pm
#88
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http://www.timaticweb.com/cgi-bin/ti...buser=DELTAB2C
- Non-compliance with visa requirements will result in:
- refusal and immediate deportation of the passenger; and
- fines for the airline of THB 20,000.-; and
- overstay fine for the passenger of THB 500.- per day (but
not exceeding in total THB 20,000.-).
- refusal and immediate deportation of the passenger; and
- fines for the airline of THB 20,000.-; and
- overstay fine for the passenger of THB 500.- per day (but
not exceeding in total THB 20,000.-).
However, DL's international Contract of Carriage states that when the country deports you and charges DL a fee, you are to pay it:
http://images.delta.com.edgesuite.ne...riage_intl.pdf
RULE 45 ADMINISTRATIVE FORMALITIES - PASSPORTS, VISAS AND TOURIST CARDS
A) COMPLIANCE WITH REGULATIONS
The passenger shall comply with all laws, regulations, orders, demands, or travel requirements of countries to be flown from, into, or over, and with all rules, regulations, and instructions of carrier. Carrier shall not be liable for any aid or information given by any agent or employee of carrier to any passenger in connection with obtaining necessary documents or complying with such laws, regulations, orders, demands, requirements, or instructions, whether given orally, in writing, or otherwise, or for the consequences to any passenger resulting from his failure to obtain such documents or to comply with such laws, regulations, orders, demands, requirements, or instructions.
B) PASSPORTS AND VISAS
1) Each passenger desiring transportation across any international boundary will be responsible for obtaining all necessary travel documents and for complying with all government travel requirements. The passenger must present all exit, entry and other documents required by the laws, and, unless applicable laws provide otherwise, shall indemnify the carrier for any loss, damage, or expense suffered or incurred by such carrier by reason of such passenger's failure to do so. Carrier is not liable to the passenger for loss or expense due to the passenger's failure to comply with this provision. Carrier reserves the right to refuse carriage to any passenger who has not complied with applicable laws, regulations, orders, demands, or requirements or whose documents are not complete. No carrier shall be liable for any aid or information given by any agent or employee of such carrier to any passenger in connection with obtaining such documents or complying with such laws, whether given orally or in writing or otherwise.
2) Subject to applicable laws and regulations, the passenger agrees to pay the applicable fare whenever carrier, on government order, is required to return a passenger to his point of origin or elsewhere due to the passenger's inadmissibility into or deportation from a country, whether of transit or of destination. The fare applicable will be the fare that would have been applicable had the original ticket designated the revised destination on the new ticket. Any difference between the fare so applicable and the fare paid by the passenger will be collected from or refunded to the passenger as the case may be. Carrier may apply to the payment of such fares any funds paid by the passenger to carrier for unused carriage, or any funds of the passenger in the possession of carrier. The fare collected for carriage to the point of refusal or deportation will not be refunded by the carrier, unless the law of such country requires that such fare be refunded.
A) COMPLIANCE WITH REGULATIONS
The passenger shall comply with all laws, regulations, orders, demands, or travel requirements of countries to be flown from, into, or over, and with all rules, regulations, and instructions of carrier. Carrier shall not be liable for any aid or information given by any agent or employee of carrier to any passenger in connection with obtaining necessary documents or complying with such laws, regulations, orders, demands, requirements, or instructions, whether given orally, in writing, or otherwise, or for the consequences to any passenger resulting from his failure to obtain such documents or to comply with such laws, regulations, orders, demands, requirements, or instructions.
B) PASSPORTS AND VISAS
1) Each passenger desiring transportation across any international boundary will be responsible for obtaining all necessary travel documents and for complying with all government travel requirements. The passenger must present all exit, entry and other documents required by the laws, and, unless applicable laws provide otherwise, shall indemnify the carrier for any loss, damage, or expense suffered or incurred by such carrier by reason of such passenger's failure to do so. Carrier is not liable to the passenger for loss or expense due to the passenger's failure to comply with this provision. Carrier reserves the right to refuse carriage to any passenger who has not complied with applicable laws, regulations, orders, demands, or requirements or whose documents are not complete. No carrier shall be liable for any aid or information given by any agent or employee of such carrier to any passenger in connection with obtaining such documents or complying with such laws, whether given orally or in writing or otherwise.
2) Subject to applicable laws and regulations, the passenger agrees to pay the applicable fare whenever carrier, on government order, is required to return a passenger to his point of origin or elsewhere due to the passenger's inadmissibility into or deportation from a country, whether of transit or of destination. The fare applicable will be the fare that would have been applicable had the original ticket designated the revised destination on the new ticket. Any difference between the fare so applicable and the fare paid by the passenger will be collected from or refunded to the passenger as the case may be. Carrier may apply to the payment of such fares any funds paid by the passenger to carrier for unused carriage, or any funds of the passenger in the possession of carrier. The fare collected for carriage to the point of refusal or deportation will not be refunded by the carrier, unless the law of such country requires that such fare be refunded.
The OP did not have a valid e-ticket yet, so that very likely is the issue. If he had a printed out copy of the e-ticket, then that should be sufficient for Delta. Once he has that, then he should be allowed travel. OP, you may want to print out the following as well:
If you leave Thailand and return via a suitable international airport, the immigration officer will give you a new stamp and a new 30 day visa, up to 90 cumulative total days in 6 months:
http://www.thaiconsulnewyork.com/english/who.php
Passport holders of the following countries are not required to obtain a visa when entering Thailand for tourism purposes and will be permitted to stay in the Kingdom for a period of not exceeding 30 days on each visit. Foreigners who enter the Kingdom under the Tourist Visa Exemption category may re-enter and stay in Thailand for a cumulative duration of stay of not exceeding 90 days within any 6-month period from the date of first entry:- (Passport needs to be valid for no less than 6 months)
Mar 5, 2010, 2:22 pm
#89
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That comes back to a question I had posted above and for which I do not know the answer, on an itinerary such as this, is the first airport in fact the "gatekeeper" to insure that the passenger has the proper documents to fly internationally? I think it is, otherwise DL or any other airline could wind up with pax at international departure airports with insufficient travel docs if they had not already been checked at the feeder airport. I don't think any airline is going to consider the flight to ATL as just a domestic flight if it is part of an international itinerary. That's why I suggested that the pax might have to purchase a separate ticket to ATL just to get there, and then sort it out later.
I am in awe at the incompetence being displayed here by DL!
Mar 5, 2010, 2:24 pm
#90
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I profess to not knowing the actual answer, and I, like many other posters, am only going on gut instinct and not real experience. I just posted a thread in the Thailand forum inviting anyone with extensive knowledge of Thai visas to plow through this thread and then post his or her comments here. Hopefully someone will.