Delta denies boarding based on fuzzy visa info
#46
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I once ran into this with KE. Was departing SYD for ICN on KE in paid F (so the agents were super nice to me), and heading out the next day to NRT on a separate ticket (012 ticket). The agent kept asking (in that super-polite "i am afraid I might offend you" way) where my Korean visa was, and I couldn't understand why she was asking this, and kept telling her that I didn't have a visa. Finally dawned on me that I needed to explain that I had a separate ticket out of Korea. She took the etkt# and then proceeded to explain to me that I had to check my umbrella (the long kind, not the compact kind) due to australian security, profusely apologized, and produced this massive sporting equipment box. It was great
#48
Join Date: Dec 2006
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 1,212
If a country's entry policy specifically states a maximum stay without visa you will have to present a valid ticket proving you will leave within the specified period. Some countries specifically state that proof of onward or return tickets is required while others do not.
Depending on the actual requirements you could be denied boarding if not holding the appropriate documents.
Depending on the actual requirements you could be denied boarding if not holding the appropriate documents.
Yes, some countries do specifically state that you must have proof of onward or return tickets, which is consistent with what I said. Proof of onward travel/ return tickets would be part of the documentation requirements, and for such countries, DL would be absolutely correct to deny me boarding without any compensation.
In the case of the OP, he/she had more than adequate documentation, and DL was wrong to deny him/her boarding. It is not up to DL to make an assessment as to whether somebody will violate the immigration laws of a country if the passenger has the proper documentation to board a flight to that country.
#49
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So I'm all set to leave today to SE Asia for a 45-day trip, flying US to Bangkok round-trip on a US passport. My itinerary called for 20 days in Thailand, then flying to Malaysia on a separately booked flight, and re-entering Thailand a few days before my return trip to US.
Except Delta denied me boarding. They quoted the IATA visa regulations for Thailand, which state "Visa required, except for a touristic stay of max. 30 days." I did a LOT of research planning for the trip and this is technically true, but incomplete. As long as I leave Thailand within 30 days and can prove it, then I am following the law. That's what my separate flight itinerary showed. The Delta agent didn't care. I wasn't allowed to board.
Delta has thus far entirely refused to budge, essentially relying on the fuzzy information of IATA and Delta's own narrow interpretation to deny any wrongdoing whatsoever. I understand Delta rep thought he was doing his job, but they have basically made up their own immigration policy based on IATA's terse and incomplete explanation.
Is there anything I can do at this point? Is there anyone at Delta I can talk to who will care? No one I can get on the phone has any power or common sense to interpret the IATA statement correctly. Right now my only option is a refund minus the hefty cancellation fee. And then I'm out a lonnnng-planned, once-in-a-lifetime vacation.
Any advice is greatly appreciated! (And before you yell at me, yes, I could have just gotten a visa, but I really didn't foresee the need since I was complying with Thai immigration laws.)
Except Delta denied me boarding. They quoted the IATA visa regulations for Thailand, which state "Visa required, except for a touristic stay of max. 30 days." I did a LOT of research planning for the trip and this is technically true, but incomplete. As long as I leave Thailand within 30 days and can prove it, then I am following the law. That's what my separate flight itinerary showed. The Delta agent didn't care. I wasn't allowed to board.
Delta has thus far entirely refused to budge, essentially relying on the fuzzy information of IATA and Delta's own narrow interpretation to deny any wrongdoing whatsoever. I understand Delta rep thought he was doing his job, but they have basically made up their own immigration policy based on IATA's terse and incomplete explanation.
Is there anything I can do at this point? Is there anyone at Delta I can talk to who will care? No one I can get on the phone has any power or common sense to interpret the IATA statement correctly. Right now my only option is a refund minus the hefty cancellation fee. And then I'm out a lonnnng-planned, once-in-a-lifetime vacation.
Any advice is greatly appreciated! (And before you yell at me, yes, I could have just gotten a visa, but I really didn't foresee the need since I was complying with Thai immigration laws.)
#50
Join Date: Oct 2008
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I am really surprised to hear that this happened to the OP. While I do not travel regularly to Thailand, I do live and work in Europe (Bulgaria now, but previsouly Slovakia). My travel often results results in me being in country for more than 90 days. Staying in these countries more than 90 days out of 180 days requires a visa or a residency permit (both of which I have now). Not once has Delta questioned whether I had the proper credentials to be in Bulgaria or Slovakia for more than 90 days. Only once did an agent ask me if I needed to have a visa to go to Bulgaria, but that was more about the agent not realizing that Bulgaria is part of the EU.
#51
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 17
Thanks for all the info!
Hi there!
This is the OP again ... I had no idea that this would generate so many replies so quickly! I checked back this morning expecting 1 or 2 replies. Thanks for all the helpful advice. I spent most of yesterday being disappointed and haven't got up the energy yet to fight back. But I will read carefully through these options and will try to let you know what happens!
To answer some questions: I had an onward itinerary, but I *didn't* actually have the flight paid for and booked (i.e. etkt #). Since Thai immigration doesn't care in 99.99% of cases, I figured I could do it from Bangkok. But I do have a smartphone. So standing there in line I went to the website and was about to purchase the ticket, to give the agent a valid etkt#. But the agent didn't care. He said that even a confirmed onward ticket wouldn't change a thing. Over 30 days = visa required, in his book.
Also, I was checking in at a small regional airport, Gainesville, FL. The itinerary was Gainesville - ATL - ICN - BKK. I seriously wonder if an ATL agent would have made the same mistake.
Again, I will read carefully through the postings and let you know what happens today!
This is the OP again ... I had no idea that this would generate so many replies so quickly! I checked back this morning expecting 1 or 2 replies. Thanks for all the helpful advice. I spent most of yesterday being disappointed and haven't got up the energy yet to fight back. But I will read carefully through these options and will try to let you know what happens!
To answer some questions: I had an onward itinerary, but I *didn't* actually have the flight paid for and booked (i.e. etkt #). Since Thai immigration doesn't care in 99.99% of cases, I figured I could do it from Bangkok. But I do have a smartphone. So standing there in line I went to the website and was about to purchase the ticket, to give the agent a valid etkt#. But the agent didn't care. He said that even a confirmed onward ticket wouldn't change a thing. Over 30 days = visa required, in his book.
Also, I was checking in at a small regional airport, Gainesville, FL. The itinerary was Gainesville - ATL - ICN - BKK. I seriously wonder if an ATL agent would have made the same mistake.
Again, I will read carefully through the postings and let you know what happens today!
Last edited by brenkarch; Mar 5, 2010 at 10:05 am
#52
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 17
PS I apologize for the confusion over the booking issue. I guess I didn't technically have an etkt#. I wasn't 100% clear on the booking vs itinerary process in my previous post. I'm somewhat of a novice traveler and not an expert on all the airline rules. I figured it didn't really matter especially with Thai immigration being fairly lax with Western tourists. Also, in the world of instant online booking I could have easily gotten an etkt with a few clicks on my phone.
But I feel like it's somewhat beside the point, since I said I would show the gate agent proof of onward travel (i.e. etkt#, i was a few clicks away from buying), and he refused to even look at that or be persuaded by it. He said it wouldn't make a difference.
But I feel like it's somewhat beside the point, since I said I would show the gate agent proof of onward travel (i.e. etkt#, i was a few clicks away from buying), and he refused to even look at that or be persuaded by it. He said it wouldn't make a difference.
#54
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I had a similar issue back in the NW days -- showing up in MKE with a ticket to go to Kiev (KBP) for six months. The screen told them only three months without a visa -- but I had a flight booked on AZ from Kiev to Milan after one month in Kiev. I could shown them the eticket on my laptop, but they still refused to check me in.
This got a bit scary, as I'd shown up just 60 minutes before the initial flight as MKE is not busy. Fortunately this was an award ticket and I was PE, so after fifteen fruitless minutes trying to get the check in staff to see reason (the only people at MKE who actually know anything are inside the WC past security) I just called the elite line and got the return changed to a random date inside the three month window. Then I changed it back after I got there.
Of course this relied on free award changes, award availability, and getting straight through to someone who could deal with a complex situation without putting you on hold. Fortunately it all worked fine, and we were checked in with about 30 minutes left. All the luggage made it too.
Needless to say in KBP I was never asked to show a return ticket of any kind.
This got a bit scary, as I'd shown up just 60 minutes before the initial flight as MKE is not busy. Fortunately this was an award ticket and I was PE, so after fifteen fruitless minutes trying to get the check in staff to see reason (the only people at MKE who actually know anything are inside the WC past security) I just called the elite line and got the return changed to a random date inside the three month window. Then I changed it back after I got there.
Of course this relied on free award changes, award availability, and getting straight through to someone who could deal with a complex situation without putting you on hold. Fortunately it all worked fine, and we were checked in with about 30 minutes left. All the luggage made it too.
Needless to say in KBP I was never asked to show a return ticket of any kind.
#55
Join Date: Jan 2000
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Huh? If he could furnish proof of onward travel within 30 days to the Delta agent in Gainesville, then Delta should not have denied him boarding. He offered to provide an e-ticket to the DL agent, and the agent said it did not matter. This is incorrect from my understanding of the rules.
So I think DL screwed up.
FWIW, I had a similar issue with a connection to Buenos Aires via GRU. I don't need a visa, but my travelling companion would need a Brazilian Visa normally and did not have one. However provided you are in-transit the same day, you can still connect through Brazil without a visa. We provided the UA GA with the onward e-ticket information for Aerolineas Argentinas, and we were good to go.
So I think DL screwed up.
FWIW, I had a similar issue with a connection to Buenos Aires via GRU. I don't need a visa, but my travelling companion would need a Brazilian Visa normally and did not have one. However provided you are in-transit the same day, you can still connect through Brazil without a visa. We provided the UA GA with the onward e-ticket information for Aerolineas Argentinas, and we were good to go.
#56
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I can see a DL agent wanting to see an onward itinerary, but since that was provided, I fail to see the reason for the agent's actions.
#57
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Huh? If he could furnish proof of onward travel within 30 days to the Delta agent in Gainesville, then Delta should not have denied him boarding. He offered to provide an e-ticket to the DL agent, and the agent said it did not matter. This is incorrect from my understanding of the rules.
So I think DL screwed up.
FWIW, I had a similar issue with a connection to Buenos Aires via GRU. I don't need a visa, but my travelling companion would need a Brazilian Visa normally and did not have one. However provided you are in-
transit the same day, you can still connect through Brazil without a visa.
We provided the UA GA with the onward e-ticket information for Aerolineas Argentinas, and we were good to go.
So I think DL screwed up.
FWIW, I had a similar issue with a connection to Buenos Aires via GRU. I don't need a visa, but my travelling companion would need a Brazilian Visa normally and did not have one. However provided you are in-
transit the same day, you can still connect through Brazil without a visa.
We provided the UA GA with the onward e-ticket information for Aerolineas Argentinas, and we were good to go.
Hard to totally agree with you on this one. Originally, apparently the OP did not have an onward purchased ticket. An "itinerary" only is not going to cut it under any circumstances. DL was within its rights to see that
the OP had shelled out the money to get out of the country witin the proper timeframe. Accordingly, DL was correct in not boarding him. The OP's position would have been much stronger if he had already purchased the onward ticket and had a copy in his hand. Besides, why hadn't the OP already purchased his onward ticket? I know he said Thai immigration can be lax but it sounds like he took a big chance by not buying that onward ticket and lost. I am sorry he lost , but you can't just show up for an international flight and count on another country's immigration people being lax. Too much is at stake. And besides, we don't know what the DL agent would have said if the OP had already purchased the onward ticket and showed that to him when he tried to checkin. My guess is if the OP had held his ground, and had politely forced the appropriate phone calls to be made, he would have been allowed to fly. Showing up without that onward ticket makes it look like you do not know what you are doing, and offering to buy it on the spot just sounds strange.
Last edited by waltinsocal; Mar 5, 2010 at 11:43 am
#58
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Posts: 22,778
I disagree. The Delta agent screwed the OP. If the OP presented proof of onward travel out of Thailand within 30 days, there is absolutely no reason for Delta to deny him boarding. OP's return date on his round trip ticket being beyond thirty days is not an indication that the OP intends to stay in Thailand for more than 30 days.
Reservation does not mean intent to stay. People who plan to travel to multiple destinations often by one round trip to a city in the general area and arrange their regional travel on separate tickets, sometimes after arriving at the destination. What if someone is traveling on an open ticket? Do you think an airline can deny you boarding just because you don;t have a definite date of return within the stipulated duration?
Most immigration or customs officers in most countries, our own country excluded, are very reasonable. They are open to understanding your situation.
I was once travelling from KUL to SIN, on land, with three swords in my baggage, not knowing I was doing anything wrong. SIN customs detected swords in my baggage and told me I could not enter Singapore as Singapore does not allow any weapons. I planned to be in Singapore for less than 24 hours since I was travelling to Singapore to catch my flight back to the U.S. the very next day. I told the customs officer that I am only transiting through Singapore. He issued me some paperwork authorising me to import the swords into Singapore temporarily with my undertaking that I would re-export them out of Singapore upon departure.
Delta screwed big time.
Airines, if they bring someone in who overstays, are responsible for doing the deportation flight at their own expense, by international agreement. Delta does not want to risk a full fare deportation flight on you down the road. It's their liability, not yours. Your visa says 30 days and your reservations say 45..can you really blame them?
I once ran into this with KE. Was departing SYD for ICN on KE in paid F (so the agents were super nice to me), and heading out the next day to NRT on a separate ticket (012 ticket). The agent kept asking (in that super-polite "i am afraid I might offend you" way) where my Korean visa was, and I couldn't understand why she was asking this, and kept telling her that I didn't have a visa. Finally dawned on me that I needed to explain that I had a separate ticket out of Korea. She took the etkt# and then proceeded to explain to me that I had to check my umbrella (the long kind, not the compact kind) due to australian security, profusely apologized, and produced this massive sporting equipment box. It was great
I was once travelling from KUL to SIN, on land, with three swords in my baggage, not knowing I was doing anything wrong. SIN customs detected swords in my baggage and told me I could not enter Singapore as Singapore does not allow any weapons. I planned to be in Singapore for less than 24 hours since I was travelling to Singapore to catch my flight back to the U.S. the very next day. I told the customs officer that I am only transiting through Singapore. He issued me some paperwork authorising me to import the swords into Singapore temporarily with my undertaking that I would re-export them out of Singapore upon departure.
Delta screwed big time.
Last edited by Canarsie; Mar 5, 2010 at 9:41 pm Reason: Consolidation.
#59
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Airlines can verify bookings in their systems if they need to, but e-ticket itinerary printouts are the norm.
EDIT: I missed the OP's follow-up that there was no purchased ticket.
I still think DL was in the wrong, but I'm a little less sympathetic. However, since the OP indicates that he/she was willing to pay for the ticket to have a purchased ticket, then I do think DL becomes wholly in the wrong again. The OP should have bought the ticket and then escalated.
Of course, a purchased ticket doesn't prove a whole lot, as refundable tickets can be refunded and no-shows can occur. A purchased ticket, though, does show the ability to finance a ticket, and that is something.
Last edited by soitgoes; Mar 5, 2010 at 11:51 am
#60
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I disagree. The Delta agent screwed the OP. If the OP presented proof of onward travel out of Thailand within 30 days, there is absolutely no reason for Delta to deny him boarding. OP's return date on his round trip ticket being beyond thirty days is not an indication that the OP intends to stay in Thailand for more than 30 days.