When will it stop?
 

We are now several months into the transition from NW to DL and several months into the merge of the FT boards. As a former NW Plat who loved NW airlines and more importantly (relative FlyerTalk) the Worldperks program I was immediately expecting the worst from DL, both the Airline and the FF program. I dove in very early on by going out of my way to fly DL starting in Sept figuring I ought to get to know what I am in for. I realized pretty quickly a few things and I think these things are pretty much universal across the former NW population here and are expressed in this thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...-nw-flyer.html

To summarize:

-DL has a good..no great domestic product. I have flown all of the airlines and can honestly say that the service, AVOD, General AC appearance, and food are all as good or even much better than NW had to offer

-My upgrade % has stayed exactly the same as a Plat (100%) and I will be DM for the next 2 years. I am confident that upgrades will continue to be as generous on DL as they were on NW.

-The free Skyclub membership is really a savings for me. I have been a WC member for 8 years and happily paid out the ($150??) fee every year so this is a hard savings for me.

-In-flight service and ground staff are all comparable IMO.

The issues I have are ONLY with 3 things but they are important:

-International Upgradeable fares are too high and need to get competitive or I may honestly have no choice but to split my domestic and INT travel across a few carriers.

-The website is just horrible. The award calendar does not work and the revenue engine is spotty at best.

-Low award availability is extremely tough to come by.

We can ALL agree on these points I am sure. They are legitimate issues and legitimate compliments. Anybody who likes high upgradable fares, a lack of award availability, and an award booking engine that does not work at all should probably just be quiet and hope it stays that way. I for one do want DL to know what the need to do to keep our business.


I am asking all of the folks here on the FT board to drop the references to "Ex NW Filers" and "DL apologist" and just deal with the subjects being discussed. At this point, if we are still here, we are NOW all DL flyer's and that is all that should matter. To the Legacy DL posters, yes, there is a bunch of complaining that you have not had until now but that is because you now have a population of FF program members with different expectations for the FF program and the IT ease of use we had with NW. The complaining is obviously going to happen here….it IS the DL Board.

The vast majority of people here whether DL or NW agree that DL has some issues with the website, high upgradeable fares, and low award availability. These are not NW specific issues they impact everyone here and we should look at them that way. It may be that there are a ton of threads that are repetitive and I understand the frustration with that but it does not have to be about who started the thread. We can all help with housekeeping by flagging our Mods with the "report this post" button to help consolidate. There is no need to continue to say (with eyes rolled) “not ANOTHER POST about X!” . If you REALLY are sick of the repetitive posts then do something about it without minimizing the posters problem. Let’s not make it about the people reporting the issue but about the issue.

It would be nice if there were as many positive posts about SM and there are some, but it is human nature to spout off when you have a problem and not so much for the reverse. As long as the readers and posters here focus on the issue (or just ignore it if you are bored) and not the posters or what airline they used to fly, this discussion board will continue to be a valuable resource. Again, I think the vast majority of people here have got off the "Us/them" bandwagon. We should all call out the people who are making these comments on both sides and keep the momentum going in the right direction on this board. There are several posts today in another thread to that read something to the effect of "NW= Sucks". Where are the DL regulars to call out that behaviour? I will jump in and say something (and have) when somebody from the NW board slams DL for something I have not experienced. We need to take control of this...it is up to us to put a stop to the bickering and, frankly, lazy posts that accomplish nothing but bad vibes.

And here I thought this thread was based on a rhetorical question ("when will it stop?"). Thought you might be referring to your 100% upgrade success.

Hopefully that never stops!

-RM

^^
+1000

I was actually thinking this EXACT same thing on my way home last night...

If we really want DL to address the problems that we encounter (and lets face it, we all find some along the way), we need to present a united front.

I will start by saying that I'm happy to be a DL Platinum Medallion (I even changed my info on the left to reflect this...).

As avidflyer said: Please do your part by discussing the issues, and not who's making the statement.

Also, let's try to refrain from saying "On NWA it was always like this", unless people are asking for specific examples of where it was/is different.

KLM FB Elites - upgrade
 

If I may, one more factual difference that is negative is that the FB Elites are not considered for upgrades anymore, and I am sure we cannot use the SkyLounge, which were 2 of the biggest perks when flying domestic in the US.

Does anyone know if there are plans to change this?

When did it start?
 

The better question is when did it start? The answer is long before the merger was announced. One of the things I noticed when searching older threads was the tone, tenor and lack of civility. Things may have ratcheted up a bit in the last year, but the undercurrent has always been here. I don't have a lot of hope it will get better. The best I can do is disagree without being disagreeable.

Just because you have not experienced it does not mean that it's not a serious problem for others.

Otherwise I agree with your post, though I might add:

- Reduce schedule changes and preserve seating when making changes.

- Fix inconsistent elite C/S

But perhaps most of all, gain some integrity, have your product match your rhetoric, and take pride in what you offer to your customers. For example, if you cannot do seat assignments on KL then say so and tell customers how they can do them. Do not put up a false and incorrect seat map and give customers a placebo seat that KL (or whatever partner carrier) never even sees. If you're re-opening a skyclub you closed a few months ago, say so, don't imply that you're adding a new one.

Few will argue that the website is good. I hope Delta knows this...

INT upgrades... if it is too easy, then availability would become more of an issue for hi rev folks, but I am with you in the spirit of the comment..

Rewards search engine? I know I have joked about this, but why is this so important to a biz traveller? How many free trips do you actually book? I do not get it. I never use the thing...I call and always get good help. SUre it is poor, but that works to the advantage of those who are willing to spend a little time... I assure you of this... furthermore, it is free travel and a very small part of one's flying experience... it just seems like there are so many other things I'd like Delta to focus on... or better yet, things that Delta sees as a priority for making my biz trips more pleasant...

Great post. I don't disagree with any of your comparisons on the strengths/weaknesses that DL has.

Great post avidflyer...agree 100% with all your points.

The web site is OK for many things, but not for showing awards.
NW was better for storing companion profiles.
I have not yet figured out how on DL.
My upgrades are certainly useful, and the attention due to Wx recently helps (was in LAX over weekend and could not get back on Sun).

Int upgrades are an important part. When your company pays only economy or books discount economy, it is good to have an option of upgrade that you have earned through your loyalty, like on AA.

Even though awards are only a small part of my flying experience, when I book these, it is for family and friends and for vacation times. I spend MY time on these. If I am going on work in C, the flying is a chore that I have to deal with for my job. One should never mix quantity for quality.

I agree with your post. My biggest challenge has been rather simple trying to figure out if something is a merger issue that will/ can be fixed or is a new policy. I think that shows up on the board a lot, along with the misinformation from Delta employees trying to keep up with the changes. Hopefully it will settle down in another couple of months.

But this has nothing to do with DL, it is more about the terrible situation AF/KL has gotten themselves into. Why should DL do this? What is the incentive for them? I think they'll rather try to work something out with AS instead.
Don't get me wrong, I have always enjoyed the NW-KL relationship while I was with KL and later FB, but this has really been a thing of the past which they tried to kill a few times. I still remember when they cancelled our lounge access and a few os us were denied entry ... it took a ton of complaining from many folks on this board to get this back. Now they have the prefect excuse to eliminate something they never wanted in the first place.

100% agree. NW was not the end all be all. I think everything else is largely a wash...some good, some bad. If DL would just address these items I can't think of anything general that I would whine about. Most of the other little hassles are random and not systematic (in my experience).

...and about how often I actually book award travel. If I am practically living on an airplane for work, you sure as hell can bet I don't want to spend hours trying to book a nice trip for my family when I finally get some flight time to myself. It IS a BIG DEAL to MANY business travelers.

avidflyer, I love your OP. I'll make a concerted effort to do my part. I get defensive sometimes because I just don't buy the milk-n-honey memory on BOTH sides of the pre-merger world.

Here are a few ways we can all present a united front and stop bickering amongst ourselves.

1) If you see a signature for a member that is negative start IGNORING them by adding them to your ignore list. Don't quote them.... don't defend any position you have that they have slammed... don't give them the satisfaction. If someone's signature is neutral then respond however you like.

2) If you have a signature that is negative be prepared to be invisible. Change it or be shunned.

3) For God's sake STOP with the "best in class" comments. It's old. It's not original. It's not witty. It's just plain tired. It is a marketing slogan. Avis: "We Try Harder".... Do people really expect this to be a truism? Flintstone Vitamins: "10 million strong and growing". Growing? really? that was the slogan 20 years ago. Is anyone keeping count? It's a Madison Avenue marketing slogan and NOT to be taken literally, absolutely, or to the bank. Even if DL did become "best in class" others would have to follow because then there would be one program deemed best. Best for whom? "Best" is a subjective word most of the time (example of a quantifiable "best" would be the best time for a race in the Olympics). The advertising world loves to play on subjective emotions. Don't let them win. Ignore it. Don't be susceptible to a sound bite.

I'll commit to letting the past be the past and move forward together as ONE group in an effort to address the three issues avidflyer so succinctly mentioned in his OP.

You , my friend, are one of the folks who offered the olive branch early and in-fact helped to assimilate many of the NW FT'ers here on this board.. I agree 100% on the snide remarks from the NW side...I will call them out when I see them on both sides, you have my word on that. Hopefully we can boil the issues down to the few (granted there are variations of the few) that are so important to most SM members and do so as DL Customers not some dysfunctional kids whining to their dysfunctional parents about the brother/sister. :) Anyone who is really fed up is gone or going...I fly a LOT and will be with DL for quite some time if even just on my Domestic routes. I think anyone left here really does want the DL program to work for them and would not be here if they did not see all the good that DL does bring to the party. We can all help that mission by staying focused and keeping it about the issues.

When did it start? I would say it started with Jeff Robertson's hit & run posting when DL's own elites got fed up with it. This came to a head when some FlyerTalkers figured out the truth behind restrictions on double mileage awards. A large proportion of FT quit trusting the SkyMiles management long before the merger was part of the picture.

Jeff seems very nice & personable in person and can make his case quite well to a group of Flyertalkers, but he comes off very differently when he posts. This also underscores the importance of the DL/RWT DO, because it gives a large number of FT members a different window into Delta.

I would add a 4th -- the cold meals in F. My flights in DL F this year have been very underwhelming. Our CO experience has been vastly superior.

Perhaps a better way to express that is that the quality of medium-haul F has declined and is not competitive. From MSP we mostly get short-haul & medium-haul flights.

I do agree with avidflyer's top 3 list.

This is so childish. Focus on the discussions and not the personalities involved & their overall positions. We don't need even more divisiveness by have some persons or persons lobbying to "shun" others.

The "best in class" phrase came into use about the same time they buried one the biggest negative changes affecting NW Plats in a marketing blurb. It was NOT a marketing slogan -- it was a disingenuous response by Jeff Robertson to the NW elites (esp. Plats). We're never going to forget that, at least not for a long time.

Didn't Sarah have "best in class" on her palm?

As a NW flyer for 20+ years and a plat for the last 10 or 12, I am sincerely overjoyed to see that airline gone. There was a corporate culture of blaming the customer for anything that went wrong. If staff were having a bad day, the general rule of thumb seemed to be that they wanted you to share in it. I just chalked it up to the passive/aggressive Upper Midwest culture.

Delta has been a very pleasant surprise, with the exception of the staff at JFK who seem to have collectively gone off their meds. Delta staff generally seem to like their jobs. The SkyClub workers have been especially helpful and gracious, again with the notable exception of JFK. A number of SkyClub workers there really seem to hate their jobs. Their level of unprofessionalism is stunning.

All that said, I still have not figured out the eccentricities of Delta's upgrade policies. As a plat, three times in the last week I was not upgraded until the gate even though 80-90% of the FC seats were available. In one case there were even empty FC seats. Does anyone have insight into this phenomenon? DL's transcon service is also quite lovely: 16 seats in FC instead of 24 with dedicated staff that seems to have special training, including the ability to discuss wine selections.

DL's bureaucracy can sometimes be stiffling. I am tired of being told "the computer did it," "I have no supervisor, there is nothing more I can do," and perhaps the most annoying: the hold message on the plat medallion line that says "now that we have merged, wait times are less." Less than what? I never waited on the NW plat line. The average wait on DL seems about a minute. Saying something so easily disproved is extremely bad form and makes management look like con (wo)men.

The one and only thing I really do miss from the old NW is the Iron Range NW elite call center. They are all pros. I hope DL learns from them rather than shutting them down. If the DL bureaucracy does beat you down, I have found the staffs at the BOS and SFO SkyClubs to be particularly skilled at cutting through it, literally putting you before the computer.

The merger has been rocky, but at least NW has finally been put out of its misery.

They hooked their wagon to the wrong engine!
 

I wonder. I keep shaking my head about Delta's decision to go with their "home-grown" booking engine rather than Northwest's, which, IMHO, was significantly more intuitive, faster and accurate.

I'd even settle for the Delta "look and feel" if the engine behind it worked better.

^ A brilliant way of phrasing this, Rancher. You made me LOL at this thought... and how accurate it might be.

Assuming I'm not already invisible may I ask what constitutes a negative signature? I'm open to feedback - does mine cross that line?

While I believe both were presented with good intentions, I believe that this:
will be more effective than this:
in restoring order. I will make an effort to follow avidflyer's suggestion.

This is what sent me packing, and I haven't regretted it at all. I got tired of hearing devaluations of the FF program referred to as "enhancements." After 11 years as an elite on DL, I quit, and that was before the merger got approved.

As for NW, I was elite on them for 6 years of trans-Pac hell. I have so many memories of snarling FAs, GAs, and other angry personnel. Then there were the beat-up, dingy aircraft with no AVOD. The website and the elite phone agents were great, but nearly everything else was not as good as DL.

Unfortunately the "when will it stop" mantra overlooks the many legitimate issues with DL's operations and treatment of passengers and, also unfortunately, runs the risk of "DL apologist" labeling.

The volume of complaints aren't insignificant and the original poster trivializes their legitimacy. This, also, runs the risk of labeling.

It is not necessary here to regurgitate the litany of issues raised about the "merger" and post-merger airline operations. True, a few of the issues may be "non-issues" or overstated but by and large these complaints have been legitimate, deeply held and overwhemingly ignored by DL management.

Add to this the fact that many of the most vocal critics have a past history of DL mistreatment of its frequent flyers. When Leo Mullen and crew decided to dump on us and expected us to simply smile and take it, we didn't. NW welcomed us and for the most part treated us well. Perhaps more important is that if NW really goofed up on something -- and it did on occasion -- there were identifiable and accessible people of authority who could be prevailed upon to fix it. On this latter point alone DL has failed miserably, even to this day.

True, it's not possible to please everyone all of the time, but DL did not approach this as a merger but more like a hostile takeover. Of particular note is the increasing dilution and, in some cases, elimination of service at traditional NW stations, including its MSP hub. It by and large failed to take advantage of the good things NW could have brought to its operations. For example, you noted the superiority of nwa.com. Systematically DL pretty much sought to trounce on and eliminate the NW culture and embrace its own erroneous one-size-fits-all approach. There are many problems with that but by way of illustration we need only focus on two.

The late Sam Walton wrote that when Wal-Mart expanded north the company learned a few hard lessons, such as why Moon Pies didn't sell at its stores in Wisconsin. Walton wrote that Wal-Mart learned that it had to make regional adjustments in its operational models and history has shown that this has made WMT even more of a giant.

The second is one that asks you to look inside your heart and soul. Imagine two successful career people getting married in their late 30's or 40's. For many years they have functioned reasonably well and have been successful on their own. Into this marriage they bring both their strengths and weaknesses and while they are, in essence, merging they also have so much independent history that it is neither fair or prudent to wipe it out. Fair and prudent people will look to pick up the best attributes of each and will also recognize that there are some areas best left unchanged (just as Sam Walton learned that it didn't make sense to push Moon Pies at Wisconsin Wal-Marts).

In the case of DL's takeover, there was scant little appreciation shown for NW's attributes and its culture as well as attributes and culture of its customers and employees. In some instances even ostensibly good intentions failed. One example: new flight attendant uniforms. On the surface, not a bad thing but then there was the magazine article touting them and how NW FA's were invited to a DL style show replete with hair and makeup tips. More than a few NW FA's were insulted by the implication that they needed help in learning how to dress and fix their hair and makeup. While that probably wasn't DL's intention, the way it was carried out produced that result. In short, another example of insensitivity.

By contrast, take Republic which bought out Frontier and Midwest. Unfortunately, the latter acquisition diluted some of Midwest's distinctiveness (which was on the way out since the prior TPG acquisition) and clearly decimated many valuable YX employees. That said, Republic didn't embark on a venture to conquer one or the other carrier but instead sought to expand its family in a way that respects both cultures. Behind the scenes operations that can be merged for efficiency's sake are being consolidated but, as in the case of the marriage of an older couple, individual cultures are being respected and, where appropriate, blended. In this way the two carriers are becoming stronger individually and together.

The original post suggests that we should all agree on a few things that need fixing and hammer DL about them as a unified front. Who can argue with that? I don't but I must point out that before an attempt is made to fix "things" there must first be an effort made to repair the spirit. Not only should customers and employees of either carrier not have to "give up" anything but the experience should be enhanced by seeking out the best of both worlds and leaving alone the things that didn't need fixing. DL wasted tons of money -- which means higher fares for us -- in unnecessary spending to virtually crush the NW spirit and culture. Before you can fix things, you need to fix the soul.

That journey begins with respect. The original post's tenor not only trivializes the issues with not only what DL has done but how it did it but fails to respect the people who hold those views. The original post suggests that there's a need to eliminate rancor and embrace peace but does so from a posture of both fists being doubled and a spirit of disrespect. In so doing the original poster essentially is spreading the very disease he claims to want to cure. Because of that lack of sensitivity and respect the original post lacks sufficient integrity.

Now, I don't hide behind a handle. My name is out there and if I met the original poster face to face I'd say the same (and perhaps more).

I do wish to acknowledge that not everything DL has done is horrible. In fact, when I left DL my biggest regret was missing the front line people of DL who were largely exceptional until the corporate "no favors, no waivers" bureaucracy crushed them. I also acknowledge that NW was not without faults and it could be ruthless toward many employees who, in turn, passed it along to customers. That said, there was still consistency even on a bad day and an accessible source of redress for the worst sins. Further, while I may appreciate the new seats DL has installed, what difference does it make to have new seats or IFE on planes that go fewer places less often? And the elimination of a domestic Sky Team partner further reinforces the very DL "take it or leave it" customer service modaility which caused us SSM folks to say goobye. I say these things not to pick a fight per se but as a reminder that this isn't just about fixing things but also the spirit.

avidflyer, +1 bazillion.

DL, just please fix your website and low award avail issues...

A signature with a reference to where one can speak their mind and make their voice heard is not negative - not in my book. Sounds like you are doing your part as a united front to fix a problem we find with Delta.

I think this is a strong candidate for #4 on the list of complaints. Besides the website, uselessness of PMUs, and low award availability, DL really needs to do something about JFK. The terminals need to be bulldozed, and the staff collectively replaced. A big job, no question, but the "JFK experience" (poor layout, overcrowding, staff who just don't care) needs to be addressed.

Agree with the OP on most everything else.

This is a very thoughtful post but NOT accurate about what I have said at all. I think you will find if you look at my history here that I do NOT wish to stifle anything, and say so in th e OP and many many times on this board. I am not minmizing anybodys issues what I am saying is address the issues not the posters.

I read your post and I do NOT think you have a problem with anyone on this board. The issues you have are with the airline and that is what we should focus on.

If anything we minimize the importance of the real issues by fighting back and fourth about "whining" and "Apologists" and I do not believe that will accomplish anything other than making FT a a place where people are afraid to post about a problem or a good experience for fear of being labeled. That is wrong on both sides...sorry but I do not see from your post any reason why I should blame ANY posters here for the shortcomings I perceive with DL.

The "boiling down" is not meant to minimize problems but find some of the common ground reasons many are still here on the FT board. There ARE some good things about DL and you called one out; Front line employees. Why is it so bad to admit there are things about DL we like as well as hate? Don't know but blaming anything on somebody's here because they are long time DL customers is wrong just like minimizing the problems other have with DL because they are "NW Whiners is wrong. All I am saying (and did in the op) is if you are bored of the complaints then just ignore them...but DONT minimize the issues based on WHO wrote the post. That is childish and accomplishes nothing.

For clarity: I am NOT for stifling anyone...I am for focusing on the problems that we perceive with the FF program not on each other.

[QUOTE=Dick Ginkowski; True, it's not possible to please everyone all of the time, but DL did not approach this as a merger but more like a hostile takeover. Of particular note is the increasing dilution and, in some cases, elimination of service at traditional NW stations, including its MSP hub.
[/QUOTE]

You think MSP has been gutted? Check out CVG and then you will know what "dilution and elimination of service" is really like.

I think people forget that sometimes how you deliver the message can be just as important as what the message actually is. Posts that begin with how sucky Delta is compared to how great NWA was are naturally starting off on the wrong foot. (As a Floridian this is very similar to the oft said "We do this sooo much better back home in xxxxx" which gets to be like fingernails on a chalkboard in short order).

It would help if the former NWA flyers would realize that things have changed for the pre-merger Delta flyers as well....and not all for the better.

I think it would be more productive to focus on what needs to be changed in the new Delta, than how great things were on either NWA or pre-merger Delta.

Sure there will be some preferences and cultural differences that will result in differing opinions (such as food service and how attentive/or reserved the FA's should be for example), but for the big issues that need to be addressed, I don't think it does us any good to have topics opened up that are combative right at the get go with the other side of this merged airline (regardless of which side is barbing the other).

+1 from a former NW customer. The airline we have now is what we need to deal with. Nobody here is to blame for NW going away or DL sliding backwards in several areas...Well said.

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

I put it in caps because I wanted to shout that out.

It would not surprise me to see the CVG and MEM hubs go bye-bye.

I applaud your good intentions! However, I think your focus and efforts should be less on issues with each other (or NW vs DL as you pointed out), but rather on how we as an influential and vocal group can apply pressure on DL executives to make some changes, let alone communicate with us. It's clear that (SMI aside) FlyerTalk is simply not a big priority for DL at this point. (And let's remember that as much as we love SMI, he's a PR guy and DL has not dedicated a customer care or res person to FT.)

My guess is that more of the former NW folks are ready and willing to get loud and start a revolution, while more of the pre-merger DL folks are a more polite, and dare I say; complacent. (We can debate the details of why/how, but I think that's been done in many many threads.) What needs to happen is to start some vocal pressure on DL to engage us and give us some unflitered feedback.

Nothing is going to change related to your bolded statements until DL fixes their problems. It's sad they aren't using the collective wisdom of this amazing, concerned and willing group to help.