jimrpa

I was wondering if anyone has any ideas what the configuration of flatbeds on the 747s is going to be?

Keep in mind that a hallmark of BusinessElite is "no middle seat". The World Business Class configuration on 747s has middle seats (yuck). I guess Delta could stick the 777-style "pods" in, but they'd give up a lot of BusinessElite seating to do so. The closest configuration I could find to compare with is Virgin Atlantic. It looks like they put 14 of their "suites" into the "nose" of a 747, whereas Northwest crammed in 24 World Business Class Seats in the same space.

timf

The best comparison I could come up with is looking at Virgin Atlantic or Air New Zealand. Both operate 747-400s with a similar seat. Their version is the original seat that DL's is based off of, with the main difference being the seatback flips down to form the bed rather than reclining, but the dimensions of the seats should be similar.

It looks like you can fit 14 in the nose like you suggested, 22 seats between doors 1 and 2 on the lower level, and 20 seats on the upper deck. This gives you 56 seats, which is a net loss of 9 seats from the current configuration.

AndyTLe

My money would be on the 77L Suites. I think the final configuration could be determined by the primary routes for the 747s. Maybe more BE if the route demands, especially if there is a JAL tie-up and DL subsequently takes over some flying.

18sas

I would agree. Installing the Thompson 76D seats would probably require a 2x2x2 layout. Or worse yet a 1X3X1. So, they would lose the advantage of having all seats with direct aisle access.

VS has 54 upper class seats in its flat-bed configuration of the 744, though it does have some configs with significantly fewer UC seats. But I don't think those are in the herringbone config, so DL maybe able to squeeze a couple of more seats in that way. So, they may not lose too many J seats. They probably would be able to absorb this, the current 65 is probably too many anyway.

Question though: Is the upper deck wide enough to support the herringbone layout?

AndyTLe

Cathay has a herringbone Upper Deck. Haven't flown their J product so I can't comment but it looks nice.

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.p...711842&nseq=17
http://seatexpert.com/seatmap/101/Ca...g_haul_seats)/

Delta 764

While I would agree that the 744s will probably get the Contour Solar Suites like on the 777s, I don't know if having direct aisle access is a deciding factor for Delta. After all, once Delta decides on installing flat beds on the A330 fleet, I am pretty sure they will be the Thompson Vantage, as the Contour Solar Suites can only fit 3-abreast on the A330. The Thompson Vantage can fit on the A330 in an alternating 1-2-1/1-2-2 layout.

MSPeconomist

It hasn't been 24 seats in the nose of a 747 in a long time, since they had the old soft FC recliners in a 3 X 2-2 + 2 X 2-2-2 configuration. Since the interior re-do on the 747s after NW took delivery of the 330s, it's been four rows only in the forward section, 3 X 2-2 + 1 X 2-2-2 for a total of 18 seats in this section. It's good. And the current lie flat at an angle shell seats are nice too.

The nonbulkhead middle seats in the second section are a problem, but it's not very common to find them occupied by paying customers, as opposed to non-revs. It's just a matter of reserving one's seat before going to the airport, and we all know to pick seats ASAP. Of course, it can happen in IROPs, which probably is the biggest risk to BE on the 747, but in that case, one might not have even chosen the 747 flight originally.

The 747 issue is coach, especially the lack of IFE/AVOD. I'm guessing that therefore DL will re-do the interiors of other aircraft first. (Please, fix the horrid 767s soon.)

azj

I think they'll all be done simultaneously, which is why it's a 3 year investment. So, 744s and 767s will all get refurbed together, as opposed to one shop doing each fleet separately.

I think it's pretty clear, without Dl having said so, that they'll install the seats found on the 777LRs. With the cabin width of the 744, it would be silly to install the new seats found on the 764s. A reduction of seats unless they add rows will be the drawback.

As for the 330s, I'm sure they'll in due time, get the seats found on the 764s, however they should be the last. Of the unrefurbished fleet, that fleet by far provides the best customer experience in all classes.

18sas

Ah. There we have it then. CX has 46 J seats total on a 744. VS has 14 non-herringbone seats in the nose, so that puts us up to 60 seats at least. So, not a very big loss, considering as MSPecon pointed out, there are currently two middle seats which are probably non-rev or empty a great deal of the time.

motytrah

Plus, the 330's got leather covers in Y while the ink was still wet on the merger contract. Fairly new planes, the least offensive to people buying J ticket.

Replace the J seats in the 744 is a no brainier. The IFE system on the 744 is a bit older, they aren't going to reuse it for weight and maintenance reasons. They'll install a newer, lighter, IFE in the entire plane, that means new J seats to accommodate the new system. I would guess the new BE seats are lighter than the WBC seats too.

As an added benefit, that should mean better power for J seats as well. I've never been a fan of the AC power in the WBC seats.

TheMoose

You're comparing a first class suite to a business class seat? Please. How many of DL's ubiquitous recliners do you think they would have "crammed" in there if DL had 747s before the merger?

Considering that NW often filled the business class cabins of these birds to 60+ passengers per flight -- especially on heavy/profitable routes like MSP/DTW-Asia -- I think DL would be leaving a lot of revenue on the table if they took out too many seats from business class. The next closest large business class cabin is 50 seats on the 777-200LR, and that's only used on the long haul routes. If they take out too many business class seats on the 747s, where are they going to put the rest of the premium class passengers going to Asia (or Europe/Middle East as DL may decide to do)?

pbarnette

Nobody is comparing a first class suite to a business class seat. Folks are comparing the VS business class seat to the DL business class seat used on the 777LR. The seats are so close that VS sued Contour for patent infringement! So, ummm, I think the best guess as to what DL would have "crammed" in there would be to look at a carrier that has pretty much the same seat installed in the nose of a 747...

Under an optimal scenario, they should be able fit an additional 2 or maybe 4 seats into the nose, where VS puts the bar. They may also be able to squeeze in an additional 2 by fiddling with the spacing. On the upper deck, it looks like CX manages 22, so DL should be able to do the same. The second section of the lower deck handles 24 seats on CX, so that should put the total somewhere between 62 and 66 using the Contour seats, though this will require rejiggering the galleys and lavs, too.

At the end of the day, there is no reason why DL can't use the same seating and retain the densities needed for those exceedingly "valuable" MSP/DTW-NRT runs...

TheMoose

Read it again. He was comparing the 14 "suites" in VS 747 to the 24 WBC seats "crammed" into the NW 747. He wasn't comparing the DL seats at all with that statement.

"valuable" indeed. Glad you realize this. ^ You've never been one to think much of the NW route network, but I'm glad you at least see the "value" in these routes. Obviously NW did, and DL does as well.

meh130

And they recently lost that case after VS appealed the original ruling, apparently causing an injunction to be filed against further sales of Solar. Which is probably why DL cannot commit to more Contour Solar seats.

DLPhoenix

VS does not have a first class product. On the other hand both them and DL refer to the herringobone flat-beds in "Upper Class / Business Elite" as suites. He was therefore comparing apples to apples.


The seats VS has in the nose of the 744 are similar to the ones DL is using in the 77L. I agree with the previous posters that those seats/suits/pods fir the 744 better than the Thomson vantage (same as DL 764, EK A380 and LX A333 business class).

DLP