The Definitive "How To Search for Low Tier Business Awards"
Oct 28, 2012, 11:09 am
#1336
Join Date: Aug 2007
Programs: AA Platinum, Hyatt Diamond, Avis Chairman's Club
Posts: 168
From LAX, AZ tends to have very good availability on LAX-FCO, and then from there it should be easy to find FCO to your final destination in Europe. AZ tends to release 3 seats in business on that route and there seems to be plenty of days. They recently upgraded their business class and availability has been very good, but it's starting to catch on more.
Also realize that when you call to see if there are seats available for LAX-FCO on Alitalia, the agent will almost always tell you that there's nothing available. You should first check availability with ExpertFlyer or by doing an award search on Air France's website (Flying Blue account required). If you see the seats available there, then ask the agent to do a long sell and ask Alitalia directly. It will take about 4-5 mins on hold while they do that, but then the seats will be available. The DL system does not see AZ inventory, so by default it will say there are no seats available which is why they have to do the 'long sell'.
I paid for award nexus recently and ended up having some success. Booking 4 people to London and back meant I had to split up the group a little bit on different flights and hope stuff would open up which I could change. After booking, I set up some searches to see if more seats opened up on any of the flights people were spread accross. Within a few days, I got an email saying seats were available and I was able to call in and get everyone combined onto the same flight. This happened again a week later for another leg of the trip. I found it very helpful.
Also realize that when you call to see if there are seats available for LAX-FCO on Alitalia, the agent will almost always tell you that there's nothing available. You should first check availability with ExpertFlyer or by doing an award search on Air France's website (Flying Blue account required). If you see the seats available there, then ask the agent to do a long sell and ask Alitalia directly. It will take about 4-5 mins on hold while they do that, but then the seats will be available. The DL system does not see AZ inventory, so by default it will say there are no seats available which is why they have to do the 'long sell'.
I paid for award nexus recently and ended up having some success. Booking 4 people to London and back meant I had to split up the group a little bit on different flights and hope stuff would open up which I could change. After booking, I set up some searches to see if more seats opened up on any of the flights people were spread accross. Within a few days, I got an email saying seats were available and I was able to call in and get everyone combined onto the same flight. This happened again a week later for another leg of the trip. I found it very helpful.
Oct 28, 2012, 12:07 pm
#1337
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2001
Programs: DL 1 million, AA 1 mil, HH lapsed Diamond, Marriott Plat
Posts: 28,190
I believe you will find 331 days a firm limit irrespective of operating carrier award availability. I wouldn't otherwise discourage calling but with East Coast weather issues for the next few days the phone waits are likely to be lengthy for non-elites.
Oct 30, 2012, 10:20 am
#1338
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 71
Awesome sticky. I just used this to book ATL->CDG BE flights in April...many options on layovers. LHR, AMS, DUS etc...we even picked longer layovers to be able to go into the city for 10 hrs prior to the next leg.
200,000 miles, $250 total taxes/fees.
200,000 miles, $250 total taxes/fees.
Oct 30, 2012, 3:06 pm
#1340
Join Date: Aug 2007
Programs: AA Platinum, Hyatt Diamond, Avis Chairman's Club
Posts: 168
One can't book a round-trip award more than 330 days from your return date.
Ask an agent to look for Alitalia flights JFK/Newark/Boston/Miami/Chicago/Toronto to FCO or MXP, then look for the domestic connection. Alitalia award inventory is supported in ExpertFlyer. Alitalia has much more capacity to Italy and isn't searched by delta.com for awards.
Ask an agent to look for Alitalia flights JFK/Newark/Boston/Miami/Chicago/Toronto to FCO or MXP, then look for the domestic connection. Alitalia award inventory is supported in ExpertFlyer. Alitalia has much more capacity to Italy and isn't searched by delta.com for awards.
How do I string this together so that I can use ~100k miles per ticket (I need two), fly AZ direct on my return but have one domestic connection on my outbound to FCO?
Oct 30, 2012, 11:01 pm
#1341
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Programs: DL DM, HH Gold, SPG Gold, Hyatt Plat
Posts: 2,874
So I'm trying to do something similar. On Expert Flyer I can find some AZ availability in Z on return flights (FCO-LAX), but nothing that works on the outbound. However, if I check say JFK-FCO on EF I see some availability there on AZ in Z. But when I then search Delta for the LAX-JFK connection I don't see any low awards at 100k but I see something for 110k miles. Would that work or do I need a low award?
How do I string this together so that I can use ~100k miles per ticket (I need two), fly AZ direct on my return but have one domestic connection on my outbound to FCO?
How do I string this together so that I can use ~100k miles per ticket (I need two), fly AZ direct on my return but have one domestic connection on my outbound to FCO?
When you search just for lax-jfk, DL doesn't know you are trying to build a trip to Europe where low level in biz is 100k. So you need to use the award chart for the specific segment you are searching to know what low level is.
So an example of stringing it together would be:
1. Find your JFK-FCO flight and note the date and time. If you see Z inventory on Expert Flyer or see a classic award on Air France's search tool, then DL should be able to book it.
2. Try to find a flight from LAX to JFK. You will do a one way search LAX-JFK looking for flights either at 25k in Y or 45k in F/J. Note that the direct LAX-JFK (and SFO-JFK) in business elite will never price at low, and will always be either medium or high. So the direct flight won't work, since having one segment in medium/high will cause the rest of the trip to price out at the higher level. If you find something, just write down the date, flight number, and times which you'll give the phone agent later.
3. If searching LAX-JFK on DL.com doesn't get you anything in low, you can try manually building a trip to JFK. Search for a one way award from LAX to the various DL hubs or airports with direct flights to JFK. For example if you can find a low level award in F from LAX-CVG at 45k miles (one way), and then can search again to find a low level award in F from CVG-JFK at 45 miles, they could be pieced together to create a low level LAX-CVG-JFK for 45k miles. If you eventually add on FCO, then it would be LAX-CVG-JFK-FCO, and since all segments are at the low level, it would price as a low North America to Europe for 100k miles.
4. You can also mix cabin classes, but you'll have to search manually for that. For example you might be able to find a low 45k award in F from LAX-CVG, but then there's no flights on CVG-JFK that work. You could search CVG-JFK in economy and if there's a 25k award that works, you can give that info to the phone agent.
5. If you can manually search segment by segment and find something that works, just write down all the flight number, times, class (first/biz or econ), etc. Then you can call the DL agent and tell them you'd like to book an award to Rome and feed them the routing. When it gets to the AZ portion, they will say nothing's available but then just ask them to long sell or you can just ask them to check with AZ directly since you know the seat(s) are available.
Last edited by roknroll; Oct 31, 2012 at 9:21 am
Oct 31, 2012, 11:22 am
#1342
Join Date: Aug 2007
Programs: AA Platinum, Hyatt Diamond, Avis Chairman's Club
Posts: 168
To get to JFK on a low segment, search LAX-JFK as a one way and you'll be looking for either 25k miles in econ or 45k in F. If you can find that, then it will price as low when you add the JFK-FCO part. 110k miles for a domestic segment is definitely not low level.
When you search just for lax-jfk, DL doesn't know you are trying to build a trip to Europe where low level in biz is 100k. So you need to use the award chart for the specific segment you are searching to know what low level is.
When you search just for lax-jfk, DL doesn't know you are trying to build a trip to Europe where low level in biz is 100k. So you need to use the award chart for the specific segment you are searching to know what low level is.
But it all worked out as this morning two outbound non-stops LAX-FCO on Alitalia opened up (thank you Expert Flyer!) and I was able to hold a roundtrip, transfer Amex miles over while on the phone with the DL agent, and book the flights! All under 15 minutes!
Oct 31, 2012, 12:02 pm
#1343
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: SFO
Posts: 642
Alitalia awards on Delta?
Is it normal for Delta not to show Alitalia Business awards?
I see the following on EF:
AZ 651 0 YYZ
11/11/12
4:45 PM FCO
11/12/12
7:20 AM 330
Unavailable
76% / 55m
Business - Award Z 4
I can't recreate the same to find the award on Delta, using one-way, non-stop, and buisness. Advice?
I see the following on EF:
AZ 651 0 YYZ
11/11/12
4:45 PM FCO
11/12/12
7:20 AM 330
Unavailable
76% / 55m
Business - Award Z 4
I can't recreate the same to find the award on Delta, using one-way, non-stop, and buisness. Advice?
Oct 31, 2012, 12:10 pm
#1344
Join Date: Aug 2007
Programs: AA Platinum, Hyatt Diamond, Avis Chairman's Club
Posts: 168
Is it normal for Delta not to show Alitalia Business awards?
I see the following on EF:
AZ 651 0 YYZ
11/11/12
4:45 PM FCO
11/12/12
7:20 AM 330
Unavailable
76% / 55m
Business - Award Z 4
I can't recreate the same to find the award on Delta, using one-way, non-stop, and buisness. Advice?
I see the following on EF:
AZ 651 0 YYZ
11/11/12
4:45 PM FCO
11/12/12
7:20 AM 330
Unavailable
76% / 55m
Business - Award Z 4
I can't recreate the same to find the award on Delta, using one-way, non-stop, and buisness. Advice?
Oct 31, 2012, 5:05 pm
#1346
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Gold
Posts: 2,741
Thanks for the advice! I was searching for segments yesterday and finally got on the phone with an agent, but we had a hard time finding flights that didn't bring the whole award price up. And I want the cross-country to be in F or J and the wife doesn't want to add on a segment so...
But it all worked out as this morning two outbound non-stops LAX-FCO on Alitalia opened up (thank you Expert Flyer!) and I was able to hold a roundtrip, transfer Amex miles over while on the phone with the DL agent, and book the flights! All under 15 minutes!
But it all worked out as this morning two outbound non-stops LAX-FCO on Alitalia opened up (thank you Expert Flyer!) and I was able to hold a roundtrip, transfer Amex miles over while on the phone with the DL agent, and book the flights! All under 15 minutes!
So bjcleaver did you need to tell the DL agent to do a "long sell" to pull up the AZ flights? And each RT business class ticket just had $40 in taxes and fees and cost 100k miles, is that correct? And could the DL agent get you seat assignments?
I want to do something similar but I'll be transferring SPG points to DL instead. And my understanding is that this transaction is not instantaneous as it appears to have been for your transfer of AMEX MR points.
So here are my 2 follow up questions to any DLer (and I'm obviously unfamiliar with DL so if one of you experts could possibly answer - or point me in the right direction as to where I might find the answers - I'd be sincerely appreciative):
If I did manage to also find the AZ LAX-FCO-LAX RT in business for 100k through a DL agent like bjcleaver:
- Would I be able to put the flight on hold without currently having the 100k in my account?
- And how long would I be able keep the res on hold while waiting for the SPG points to be converted to DL miles?
Oct 31, 2012, 5:41 pm
#1347
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2001
Programs: DL 1 million, AA 1 mil, HH lapsed Diamond, Marriott Plat
Posts: 28,190
http://corporate.alitalia.it/it/la-c...tta/index.html
Nov 1, 2012, 12:30 am
#1348
FlyerTalk Evangelist & Ambassador: China
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: DEN
Programs: DL DM/MM, UA 1K, AA Exp, HH Dia, WOH Glob, IHG Plat, Marriott Gold, NA EE, Hertz PC
Posts: 17,419
Question on pricing. TPAC in J, then domestic in Y mid tier, what does that price?
Example: NRT-LAX-SFO
Where NRT-LAX in J prices 120K
LAX-SFO prices Y mid-tier at 40K.
What should it price out at?
Example: NRT-LAX-SFO
Where NRT-LAX in J prices 120K
LAX-SFO prices Y mid-tier at 40K.
What should it price out at?
Nov 1, 2012, 5:57 am
#1349
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SUX
Programs: BA Silver; HHonors Gold; SPG Gold; Points but dirt with everyone else
Posts: 8,050
Nov 1, 2012, 7:55 am
#1350
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Programs: DL DM, HH Gold, SPG Gold, Hyatt Plat
Posts: 2,874
To clarify, DL will actually price it as two separate awards since that is cheaper than a medium TPAC in J. Normally any single segment in medium or high causes the rest of the trip to price at medium or high, even if it's just a measly 1 hour hop in Y.
There are usually a good amount of award seats at low (in F or Y) on LAX-SFO, and if there isn't any low now then keep an eye on it and it might open up. You could also end your award in LAX and buy a revenue ticket for the final leg. Might be worth the $ to save 40k miles.
There are usually a good amount of award seats at low (in F or Y) on LAX-SFO, and if there isn't any low now then keep an eye on it and it might open up. You could also end your award in LAX and buy a revenue ticket for the final leg. Might be worth the $ to save 40k miles.