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The Definitive "How To Search for Low Tier Business Awards"

The Definitive "How To Search for Low Tier Business Awards"

Old Mar 15, 2018, 2:15 pm
  #2761  
 
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Originally Posted by RealHJ
Did you try to search from a different browser, computer, IP address in private mode? If not, you should. If Dullta knows who you are they may give you a higher price. Only login at the very last moment when you have secured the inventory space at the best price (which is often only available to an infrequent traveler/new customer, since DL likes to charge its FFs more).
Wow, is this hypothesized or verified? I will check via that path.
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Old Mar 15, 2018, 3:30 pm
  #2762  
 
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Originally Posted by angra
Wow, is this hypothesized or verified? I will check via that path.
That is what I and many others have observed, esp. for revenue flights, but also for awards. How often and from where you search (what cookies your browser has) does appear to often make a difference, that is why the general advise is don't search for Delta flights on delta.com, and for both award and revenue only log in once you have secured your flight inventory at the very last moment, or for revenue just add your SM # after booking is completed.
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Old Mar 17, 2018, 2:00 am
  #2763  
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Originally Posted by RealHJ
They need to go to additional/advanced options before search and specify Taipei connection and China Airlines and then it should show up and price accurately (as long as the connection is <24 hours, that is).
This provided dead-on correct.

At first I told the agent my desired routing and carrier, and she said there was no availability. I asked if she had an advanced tool that allowed her to search for a Taipei connection. She was skeptical, but willing to give it a try. Voila, BKK-SFO for 95k miles and $40 in taxes.

I will say the agent was extremely pleasant, really wanted to make this work, and was delighted that it did.

I'm also delighted, as the CI flight timing is perfect (depart BKK 5:30 p.m., arrive SFO 8:00 p.m.), basically giving me an extra half-day in Samui and saving me a forced overnight at either BKK or SIN. Much better than any option available through UA.
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Old Mar 17, 2018, 5:48 pm
  #2764  
 
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Originally Posted by RealHJ
Yes, it should. Don't take no for an answer.

You need to tell the agents how to do it in their system (most are not trained how to use it).

If they do it segment by segment it'll be additive.
If they search origin to destination it won't show.

They need to go to additional/advanced options before search and specify Taipei connection and China Airlines and then it should show up and price accurately (as long as the connection is <24 hours, that is).
How the flights are sold in have no bearing in how the itinerary is priced. Agents can find flights via their standard shopping search tool, adding flights in point to point, or forcing a connection. All that matters is how the fares are published. If the fare allows that routing, it'll price. If it doesn't, it'll be additive.

That being said, the agent's standard shopping tool won't usually show overnight layovers, so they may have to force a connection or sell in the flights point to point. Usually selling point to point isn't a problem for overnight layovers (though non-overnight layovers sometimes run into married segment logic.)

And regarding training...every agent is trained on the system the same way. You imply in many of your posts agents aren't trained correctly/Delta intentionally withholds training. This is patently false.

Now to be fair, some agents are more competent than others (and utilize their tools better). But the tools are there for every, single agent and they are all trained on how to use them.
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Old Mar 17, 2018, 7:04 pm
  #2765  
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Originally Posted by WidgetTravels
Agents can find flights via their standard shopping search tool, adding flights in point to point, or forcing a connection. All that matters is how the fares are published. If the fare allows that routing, it'll price. If it doesn't, it'll be additive.

That being said, the agent's standard shopping tool won't usually show overnight layovers, so they may have to force a connection or sell in the flights point to point. Usually selling point to point isn't a problem for overnight layovers (though non-overnight layovers sometimes run into married segment logic.)
Based on my recent experience, the agent's "standard shopping tool" did not return a 1:25 connection at TPE for BKK-SFO. She had to specify a TPE connection in order to find my desired itinerary (and she may also have specified CI, I'm not sure).

If I had not searched for available flights segment by segment, and told the agent what to do, she would not have found this itinerary. And she had no clue that specifying a connection might expand the visible options. I had to suggest it to her.
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Old Mar 17, 2018, 7:19 pm
  #2766  
 
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Originally Posted by WidgetTravels
How the flights are sold in have no bearing in how the itinerary is priced. Agents can find flights via their standard shopping search tool, adding flights in point to point, or forcing a connection. All that matters is how the fares are published. If the fare allows that routing, it'll price. If it doesn't, it'll be additive.

That being said, the agent's standard shopping tool won't usually show overnight layovers, so they may have to force a connection or sell in the flights point to point. Usually selling point to point isn't a problem for overnight layovers (though non-overnight layovers sometimes run into married segment logic.)

And regarding training...every agent is trained on the system the same way. You imply in many of your posts agents aren't trained correctly/Delta intentionally withholds training. This is patently false.

Now to be fair, some agents are more competent than others (and utilize their tools better). But the tools are there for every, single agent and they are all trained on how to use them.
If Delta agents were trained effectively then all the countless problems that everyone runs into on a daily basis wouldn't be nearly so frequent. It's much more than just a few bad apples. As I and numerous others here on FT report, with Delta it's the responsibility of the customer to tell the agent how to use their tools and do their job, as many (most?) of the DM line agents simply don't know how to do what one would think is a pretty frequent part of their job. I mean, some agents (OK, one from my direct experience) even outright won't even bother to search for any non-DL award flights, as they are under the impression that all non-DL flights are phantom and not really bookable - it's that bad.

That being said, what you said here makes sense in that one agent said only way to do it is to search O-D under advanced options, force connection, while another did the same thing by doing individual flight segments. It is good to know that how the flights are searched and put in doesn't impact pricing. Thank you for that info.

Still though pricing is often badly messed up. E.g. AAA-BBB-CCC may price as a through fare with a 23h and 2h connection, but it will be additive with a 5h connection for no apparent reason. The routing is the same. The airlines are the same. But some flight pairs will price correctly, some won't. Both online (app or dullta.com) and for the agents. I am talking about normal <24h connections here.

Back to training: if everyone is trained in the tools that they have, then I would speculate that follow-up/refresher training and skill testing (i.e., competency tests) are likely missing or inadequate. Some agents can do a reservation in under 3 minutes. Others will fumble around for an hour and still won't do it, will call global ticketing support for help where will they help or no depends on the mood of the person. The one thing that is consistent with Delta is the total and compete inconsistency. How the same flights are priced (and even if it can be done or no) can vary two or three fold - literally, and all is dependent on your luck: the agent that you get. No customer should have to HUACA. With Delta, all to often that is the sad reality.

Now to be fair, this problem is not unique to Delta. What is unique, though, is that day to day routine tasks many - seemingly most - DM agents cannot do. With most other airlines, it's the less frequent operations where one may run into a problem. And at least other airlines are more accessible to their general members than DL is to its DM customers. Case in point, with UA CA awards couldn't be booked - it was easy to escalate it to a manager in Houston who worked with the relevant dep't internally and got it fixed within a few weeks. Another example, LH had a similar problem (agents couldn't see available CA flights). After escalating to HQ in Germany, I got instructions to relay to agents on how to search for it (normal search tool won't show it, and agents are supposedly trained, but in reality have all too quickly forgotten, in how to do it). The point being that these problems are not unique to Delta. But, it is more widespread and impacts more routine day to day operations, like booking CI, MU, CZ, VN or what not flights in normal standard connections. If agents don't know how to do day to day routine operations, it can only mean that the training, while it may be notionally there, is highly ineffective.

Last edited by RealHJ; Mar 17, 2018 at 7:25 pm
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Old Mar 18, 2018, 6:56 am
  #2767  
 
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Does Korean ever show up in the online search or is that a manual search and call in these days?
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Old Mar 18, 2018, 7:28 am
  #2768  
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Originally Posted by angra
Does Korean ever show up in the online search or is that a manual search and call in these days?
Seeing some J availability on KE on ATL-ICN on delta.com, mostly in November and January. The dates below showing 95K are KE flights (95K is the partner rate over the pacific).



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Old Mar 18, 2018, 7:37 am
  #2769  
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Originally Posted by angra
Does Korean ever show up in the online search or is that a manual search and call in these days?
Don't bother to look for KE over blackout dates.

https://www.delta.com/content/www/en...ram-rules.html
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Old Mar 18, 2018, 8:00 am
  #2770  
 
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Originally Posted by RealHJ
.... No customer should have to HUACA. With Delta, all to often that is the sad reality.

Now to be fair, this problem is not unique to Delta. What is unique, though, is that day to day routine tasks many - seemingly most - DM agents cannot do. With most other airlines, it's the less frequent operations where one may run into a problem. And at least other airlines are more accessible to their general members than DL is to its DM customers. Case in point, with UA CA awards couldn't be booked - it was easy to escalate it to a manager in Houston who worked with the relevant dep't internally and got it fixed within a few weeks. Another example, LH had a similar problem (agents couldn't see available CA flights). After escalating to HQ in Germany, I got instructions to relay to agents on how to search for it (normal search tool won't show it, and agents are supposedly trained, but in reality have all too quickly forgotten, in how to do it). The point being that these problems are not unique to Delta. But, it is more widespread and impacts more routine day to day operations, like booking CI, MU, CZ, VN or what not flights in normal standard connections. If agents don't know how to do day to day routine operations, it can only mean that the training, while it may be notionally there, is highly ineffective.
What you and others have said does make a lot of sense. However, one key element is left out. Whenever there is a problem with routing, tickets, whatever, it's ALWAYS in Delta's favor.
Always.
Therefore, at some level, it is purposeful.

How many DL customers on are FT? 1% maybe.
so the other 98% will take whatever they are given at face value. Some will buy, some will go to competitors, but in any case, DL comes out ahead.

I also say it's purposeful because I have flown DL for 30+ years, mostly international, and I'd have to call periodically. Until recently, just the last year or so, whenever I called I talked to someone who really had their act together. I can not remember a bad phone agent before 2016.
Something changed. Now, If I call, more in likely, I'll know more than the agent and I pretty much only use DL.com. How is that even possible if not purposeful?? Did everyone get stupid overnight? I don't think so.

Just saying.
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Old Mar 18, 2018, 10:46 am
  #2771  
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Originally Posted by angra
Does Korean ever show up in the online search or is that a manual search and call in these days?
Yes. I saw KE itineraries for 95k BKK-SFO.

With KE I believe the issue is availability, not display. They don't release much space to DL. The best way to book KE is with KE points.
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Old Mar 18, 2018, 10:50 am
  #2772  
 
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I was making the tactical error of searching for 2 seats in business. ha.
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Old Mar 18, 2018, 11:45 am
  #2773  
 
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Originally Posted by wxman22
What you and others have said does make a lot of sense. However, one key element is left out. Whenever there is a problem with routing, tickets, whatever, it's ALWAYS in Delta's favor.
Always.
Therefore, at some level, it is purposeful.
This is true and goes without saying, and you are very right here.

To be fair, it is possible to end up with an error in the passenger's favor - most often it happens in case of schedule changes and being able to change to a more desired (= more expensive) flight at no charge, even when the schedule change didn't really warrant that (e.g. 11:55pm to 12:05am arrival, and agent says as it's a different day you get a free change), but other similar cases also - usually to do with tickets being done as an even reissue. However, when it comes to award tickets, there it is extremely rare to get an error in the passenger's favor, that is definitely true. In fact, nowadays I, and I think many others, count myself lucky just if I am not overcharged and get a flight priced right, or if I am able to book one at all. That's setting the bar really low. And that - lowering the bar - is clearly intentional.
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Old Mar 18, 2018, 11:47 am
  #2774  
 
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Originally Posted by angra
I was making the tactical error of searching for 2 seats in business. ha.
O=1, never more. So yes, if you want to fly KE for 2 pax, you need to fly on two different flights or a day apart. Or, 1 in O and other in X (that has 2 seats).
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Old Mar 21, 2018, 2:25 pm
  #2775  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
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I don't get the new DL booking page.
They seem to have eliminated in all but name, the advanced search feature. Now, you can't select connections or omit some.

Also, the calendar feature is annoying in that now, if you change one date, you must reenter both dates.
Why are they so clunky?
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