So it is not really an issue...but rant...

Not a direct answer, but...

I have a Schwab Bank debit card (also Schwab account). You can use it at an ATM without charge, or a credit back to your account when there is a charge (including international)

Here on the west coast, we have a Vons grocery. You can earn THEIR points when you buy groceries (paying anyway). These points are good for discounts on gasoline at their stations (up to $/gal). Using a debit card also saves about 10 cents a gallon (or stated another way, you pay 10 cents more a gallon with a credit card).

We also have Ralphs Groceries (Kroger) and they are now charging 50 cents to get cash back using your debit card for groceries.

Back to Schwab, and your protection desire. You can set a daily limit that can be purchased in a day (inconvenient for you but does cap your potential losses. Also you can use Schwabs APP on your device to freeze the card in-between uses (I have not done this yet)!

These features are likely available on other cards as well. There a lots of things here where you pay more using a cc. Property Taxes with the State of CA, lots of stores and other offers.

Going to carry my Discover Cashback debt card with me. Does anyone know how to change the pin? I do not know what the default pin is.

No, not a rant, but a true issue. Not having protections is a real issue that puts my finances at risk.

Now for the rant part. Too many merchants don't understand the benefits that card acceptance brings them:
- Customers tend to spend more on plastic than with cash
- There is less risk for employee and other theft with card vs. cash
- There are real savings with cards - better reporting/record-keeping (though if you are trying to understate income for taxes, well, I have no sympathy for that), less trips to the bank, etc.

I think in the case of larger stores, they're perfectly okay with cards--as long as they're all debit cards and everyone always uses PIN (since that can cost them significantly less depending on the issuer). They have more of a problem with credit cards--especially the higher tier ones--hence the fight to end the "honor all cards" rule.

Smaller stores, however, quite likely believe they get very little from card acceptance. To them, it's one of those "mandatory" deals that they wish they didn't have to do. Hence why if a store surcharges and/or has minimums, they tend to be improperly applied to all card transactions.

For some reason, there’s a difference between a cash discount and a credit card surcharge, when in reality they amount to the same thing in the end.

As for the debit card discussion in general... using debit cards is a terrible idea in most circumstances. When your card gets skimmed, it’s your actual cash going out the door instead of a line of credit. Even if you get made whole in the end, having that money tied up in the interim can have significant negative impacts.

Right and while I really want to support smaller stores, if they don't accept credit or try to surcharge me, they will lose my business

Do you think that most places that surcharge credit cards will accept Discover debit, rather than MasterCard/VISA? (I have no idea how broad Discover acceptance is in NYC.)

Most people do not pay off their credit card balance every month, so for many, using a debit card is actually a much smarter idea. What's even smarter than that is using a debit card from Bank of America or Chase, as these two banks will reimburse the lost funds before finishing their investigation.

This article is from a year ago, but I think you'll get the picture.... $1 trillion plus in credit card debt just from the U.S alone with the highest interest rates in history: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/cons...-trillion.html

I will help you understand the difference between credit card surcharges and a cash discount: If you're at a restaurant, the credit card surcharge will not be included in the menu's price but will be reflected on the receipt. For a cash discount, the restaurant will list one price on the menu for everyone and then subtract the discount for using cash. Having a cash discount makes things easier for all consumers.

Regulation E requires a credit within 10 days regardless. I doubt they'll cover any overdraft and late fees that occur between the time the fraud happens and when you call them, though, and those can be as (if not more) damaging than the initial fraud. Really, barring much better card security becoming mandatory, you're better off using cash if you can't handle credit cards.

You're still paying more for using a card, so effectively it's the same either way. The only thing a cash discount helps with is potentially making the math easier (possibly allowing someone to more easily choose cash if they want to).

Debit cards let you drain or even overdraw your accounts too. Credit makes it easier to spend money you don't have, but willingness to do so is really a deeper issue. Either type of card will let you get into financial trouble, but for anyone who doesn't spend beyond their means, there is zero reason to use debit over credit, and many reasons to use credit over debit.

As far as liability for fraud, it's still not the same; if BOA or Chase decide ultimately that you're liable, they can withdraw the money back out of your account in the end. With a credit card, no such thing. They can post the charge to your account, and you can refuse to pay your bill and accept all the consequences that come along with a protracted dispute, but you're not out your actual money. Your degree of control is higher.

I understand all that. It's a distinction without a difference. Whether you view it through the lens of someone gets a discount or some pays a surcharge, in the end, people who use credit cards pay more than people who use cash.

I've only filed one debit card dispute, it was with Bank of America back when I had a checking account with them. I ordered some razor blades online... But they didn't show up. Although the charge was only $7, I called them and explained the issue. The bank gave me a credit to my account by the next business day. Might've been different for a $500 charge, but I feel like Bank of America would be easy to work with when it comes to fraud and disputes even if the charge were a lot higher.

In reality, one shouldn't have to worry about a debit card draining their account and overdrawing it (except during cases of fraud) if they keep a cushion in it like any responsible person was. Those who aren't responsible enough to have a cushion in their checking account probably aren't responsible enough to have a credit card in the first place.

Not sure, but good point. I usually do not carry a debt card with me. I just happened to have one in my wallet because I had to make an ATM deposit.

In my experience, Discover debit (Pulse) works at any merchant that accepts PIN-based debit, even if they don't accept Discover credit. I believe that all the US debit networks are linked, so an ATM or merchant that accepts PIN-based debit should accept all debit cards. This is a holdover from when the debit card industry was very fragmented, unlike the credit card networks.

Dodd-Frank now requires all debit cards to support at least 2 payment networks, so a Discover debit card would have to support at least one other network besides Pulse.

True, but I think that is irrelevant in a practical sense. Unless you are willing to permanently ruin your relationship with that bank, take a significant hit to your credit score, and potentially deal with a collection agency or lawsuit if the amount is high enough, refusing to pay a charge on your account is not realistic for most people.

The difference is that one is misleading and the other isn't. If you are in a shop and miss the "3% card surcharge" sign at the register and suddenly find the surcharge tacked on to your bill, you have the right to be upset because you were misled about the price. If you miss the "3% cash discount" sign, well, you might get a pleasant surprise.

In other words, it is illegal to charge *more* than the posted/listed/advertised price. No one complains if you charge less.

If a bank is going to make me eat a fraudulent transaction, our relationship is already ruined and there's no way I would consider the rest of my money safe there.