On a personal note, I recently realized (thanks to FT) that you can earn AALP at Shell! So every LP I earn "organically" lol is one less GC I have to buy. How on earth did i miss this last year? So I'll be exclusively filling up there, surcharges be darned!

I recently signed up, but I think those might be fairly expensive LPs, no? (opportunity cost compared to getting cash back, and also - at least in my area - compared to just buying cheaper gas at Arco or several other gas stations).

I generally only use my Fuel Rewards account and Shell when I am on a road trip and happen to use a Shell station anyway. At home the closest Shell is neither cheap nor conveniently located.

https://frequentmiler.com/shell-now-...-when-joining/

(recently signed up after reading that article and only got 100 miles/0 LP)

I saw a YouTube ad last night (presumably paid for by the banks and networks) against one of the Senate bills in which they explicitly said that the big retailers wanted to take your CC rewards away, or something. They might have been talking about S.1838 but I skipped the rest of the ad so I'm not fully sure. I thought there might have been some recent action on it (hence the ads) but it still seems to be stuck in committee as of this writing. /shrug

Bringing it back to the topic of this thread, I fully expect that businesses will still surcharge even if that bill were to pass. There's a chance they might only do so if they allow customer selection of what network to route over (like what's done for debit cards) and if the customer chooses Visa/MC or whoever, but in past experience that seems unlikely.

Doesn't matter much if people like how California approaches laws, but it is obvious that what happens here tends to create copy versions across the country (the most famous is the vehicle emission rules, but more recent ones like universal school lunch and maybe even the upcoming banned food colors/additives). At least for the emission laws and the banned food coloring, it is not likely that a California only version of the products would be made.

I was thinking one of the new laws which has many effects on travel (resort fees and related) may also impact card surcharges. I haven't seen any notification from the networks, but I can't imagine this will be an exception.

https://sd09.senate.ca.gov/news/2023...rt-tickets-etc

SB 478

Merchants have historically not respected even the current (IMO reasonable) rules around surcharging, so I don't expect them to start do so in response to SB 478.

Also, the bigger merchants are already pretty good at having different pricing/fees for different areas given the number of state and local sales taxes and fees that exist in this country. It wouldn't be a huge stretch to have different pricing with zero fees only for their California locations (which coincidentally happens to work out to be the same as the lower pricing with fees elsewhere). And IP geolocation is reasonably accurate enough that they can do the same for online purchases, too.

SB 478 deals with mandatory charges.A credit card surcharge is optional as it is easily avoided by using another method of payment.

I got hit with a 3.5% surcharge at Liberty Bagels today. While waiting for my order, I noticed a small sign in fine print denoting the surcharge.

(Golf Club deposit for high school reunion.) Subtotal: $1,500.00, Site fee: $53.95, Payment total: $1,553.95, 3.596666% :confused: :confused: :confused:.

(I guess 3.59% is too little and 3.60% is too much :D.)

$53.95 sounds like it could be a flat fee rather than a percentage.

Good point. Maybe a combination of both?

So, for in-person transactions, any surcharge (at least for VIsa) over 3% should be reported (or any on debit or prepaid cards). Please submit and as I have said Visa does investigate (sometimes with undercover transactions), but doesn't close the loop with the complaint.

Visa complaint form:
https://usa.visa.com/contact-us.html

Their internal material:
https://usa.visa.com/content/dam/VCO...quirements.pdf
https://usa.visa.com/content/dam/VCO...qa-for-web.pdf

Mastercard is still at 4%: https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/busi...rge-rules.html

Now, for online transactions, I see most of this surcharge nonsense on small sites that essentially take a "fee". This is different than surcharge because for many sites, they charge that fee regardless of how you pay (ACH, card, etc.). If you see a lower fee rate for non-credit (debit or ACH), that lower fee is where the 3 (or 4)% count, it is NOT a card surcharge otherwise.

I submitted a complaint with this form: https://usa.visa.com/Forms/visa-rules.html

I know that Visa follows up with these complaints - or at least has in the past - because I saw a merchant take down "ID required for credit card" signs within weeks of submitting a complaint.

I’ve had Visa ask for receipts for transactions (which I don’t always have because I often pay cash to avoid these surcharges) after I report, but it’s usually weeks or months later.

I went to Eggs 'n Things today and noticed a 3% surcharge sign on the door. To its credit, the sign did indicate that this would not be charged for cash or debit transactions. I didn't have a debit card available that I was willing to test, and I paid by credit card. Additionally, there was a 3% kitchen staff surcharge that I didn't see indicated on the menu or elsewhere in the restaurant and only appeared on the bill. The 3% surcharge only went to the kitchen and not the waitstaff, so the implication was that one shouldn't reduce the % of the gratuity.

Were you hungry, or is this the Maldives (surcharge on surcharge)?

That's how the point of sale was configured. The gratuity amounts were on top of the kitchen surcharge. I probably won't be back, which is unfortunate since Mrs. Majuki and I have always enjoyed our meals there.

This is unlike some random location where I encountered a surcharge and simply wouldn't think anything of not returning.

I think that they should ban all processing fees. Banks shouldn't be allowed to charge any fees for the use of their credit cards and merchants shouldn't be allowed to tack on fees to use one either. I even would like to see limits on the APR rates charged by credit cards. The idea that a CC can charge up to 29.99% interest is just insane. Cap it at a lower rate like 12%. Finally, I would also like to see laws halting the trend to go cashless. Cash should always be allowed to purchase something.

With automation, I'd have expected credit card processing fees to have fallen dramatically since the days when the merchant had to take a physical impression of a card. Apparently they haven't. Keep in mind that inflation is not an issue here - we're talking about charges that are a percentage of the transaction. The inflation is already taken care of.

So where are those increased transaction costs coming from? The industry is an oligopoly with few providers. They've also been able to use regulations to (mostly) prevent merchants from exposing those fees to their customers. Has this reduced accountability helped or hurt the consumer?

Sure you're getting those valuable kickbacks but if they're resulted in prices that are 2.5-5% higher, are you actually coming out ahead?

I think charging merchants per transaction is fair since there is infrastructure to maintain. The question is really how much that should be (for example, does it really need to be a percentage of the amount or would a flat fee cover the costs?)

Eh, I think it's gone down a bit, but possibly not as much as it should. For instance, there was a time where Square was considered the "cheap" option for merchants even though it charged close to 3% for all card types.

Merchants have been allowed to surcharge on credit cards for a bit now and while the number that are trying to do so is increasing, it's still nowhere near the majority of stores doing so. Some of that is because of customer pushback, mind you, but that's still not a lot of action for something that's supposedly a huge problem.

Keep in mind that CC benefits don't just include points. If CC interchange does get capped, stuff like extended warranties and return protection could go on the chopping block too. And I don't see US consumer protection laws catching up to the likes of the EU (for example) any time soon to make up for that.

Off-topic digression.
That same logic (and I agree with it) would apply to tips for wait staff and realtor listing charges, but those percentages have crept up. (And, to get real off-topic, why on earth should a restaurant tip be based on the after-tax amount? Why should a server get a tip on sales tax?)

definitely continue to agree that restaurants hurt themselves with CC surcharge unless they’re really spectacular. There are too many restaurants that don’t have a CC surcharge. I definitely buy extremely little from shops that charge for credit cards. Big chain supermarkets and retailers aren’t yet charging this surcharge.

nobody has to tip for the tax unless the restaurant already sets the tip. Else one can dine elsewhere.

Understood; sorry I wasn't clear. I mean the calculated tip amounts on the credit card receipt, next to percentages. Often, the calculated amount is the stated percentage of the amount including tax. My opinion is that the calculated amount should be the stated percentage of the pre-tax amount.

Suggest tipping rates on receipts have always been a problem. Wait staff will tell you on various social media videos to tip on the total after tax, but I have also agreed that tip rates should be on the totals before government taxes.

Some restaurants do this, but most do not. I have now been to many places where the suggest tip percents are shown as 20, 22 and 24 skipping over 15 or even 18.

As an update, I received a follow up e-mail from Visa requesting - although not requiring - a receipt to follow up with the surcharge complaint. Since this was an e-mail receipt, that was easy. I'll be in New York next in about a month. I can follow up to see if the signs have been removed.

I’ve read that some Sf businesses that are cash-only have been coincidentally robbed for their cash and their atm. It’s another reason for a business to recognize the DANGERS of cash. Nobody robs for the credit card receipts (ie card number info) like before. Businesses that still want cash are facing bigger risks for robbery. Their choice. Ultimately too many people are pennywise and dollar-foolish.

while it’s on the receipt, smart FlyerTalkers will know how to properly calculate tip and tax. Secret - don’t really use cents as part of the tip.

All the cash insisters Sam Bankman-Frieds - probability (--> expected value) of a robbery is low.

Yes, there are handling costs for cash, and it's why some chains made a point of going cashless, such as Tender Greens.

After dinner tonight at the Original Farmers Market, I saw Bennett's Ice Cream had a 3.5% surcharge for all credit card transactions.

Unless a business completely bans cash, they will be facing the risk of robbery anyway. I don't think there's any evidence that a credit card surcharge increases the risk.

While I don't like the surcharges any more than any other point chaser, I think that business owners probably know more about running their businesses than we do.

Unless rounding the tip to bring the total to a whole dollar amount. ;)

While I don’t know that place… I just might change my ice cream habits. That’s me - I quit going to one bakery in Pacifica because they made a change that I hated so now I don’t drive 20-30 minutes once a week to get their fabulous poppyseed muffin.

Losing SOME revenue that’s cash is less worse than losing ALL daily revenue that’s cash. This is why such businesses need to rethink their revenue management.

Yes that’s exactly what I meant about the coins. Do servers really want $11.64 compared to $12 on a $48.36 bill? nobody wants to deal with coins.

For those in the Bay Area, it's not Mitchell's level. It's one of the stalls at the Original Farmers Market in LA. It seems like one of those merchants that reluctantly started to accept cards but still prefers cash.

There have been a couple of establishments where I've been a repeat customer, noticed the surcharge, and have not returned. The only place where I go regularly (outside of random gas station with differential pricing) that has a credit card surcharge is my barber, but I prefer to give him cash anyway.

There was an article awhile back here on Tender Greens and others. I found one here from 2018. I challenge the article saying that Millennials have youth, affluence, and a preference for cash. :)

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...bb0cdc7c4b.png
This notice is displayed on a vending machine in the Florida Welcome Center on I-75.

We have a small retail business in the family. It's been in operation in its community for decades now.

It's been interesting to see the evolution over the years on the business's viewpoint toward credit cards. Years ago, they were tolerated, but the preference was cash, no matter how difficult it was to collect. On telephone orders, the practice was to ask "where can I send the bill?" and only take a credit card if the customer requested it.

Eventually the Accounts Receivable issues became chronic. It was hours of work every month to send invoices, then send reminders, process checks, call people who didn't pay, maintain the list of deadbeat customers, etc. Plus the expense of all the paper and postage.

The policy changed to asking "which credit card would you like to use?"... I would guess 95% of customers had no problem at all with that and the remaining 5% are still allowed to pay by check.

The surprise was how much the average order size increased. In combination with launching an online ordering site, I would guess the average order size went up 25% within a year. It easily made up for all the credit card processing charges and the occasional chargeback.

The whole surcharge thing strikes me as so short sighted. People spend much more, on average, when they swipe a credit card than when they have to hand over cash or check, and the processing cost is much lower if there is any sort of invoicing involved.

This was the same calculus that McDonald's had when it decided to start accepting cards. In a restaurant environment, people on average spend 12-18% more. In cases where most consumers see surcharges, payment tends to be made at the time of service, such as restaurants, personal care, etc.

I have two thoughts that I imagine to be the case but cannot prove:

1) Most consumers don't notice the surcharge or just shrug it off. They tolerate a surcharge.
2) Many point of sale setups don't differentiate between a credit card and a debit card, so any debit card users are getting nicked for a surcharge without any benefit (aside from not having to carry cash).

I don't want them, either. I've always had the somewhat arbitrary practice of tipping whole dollar amounts on a card but paying whole dollar amounts inclusive of tips when using cash. So in the above example I would probably leave $60 cash total, if using a card wasn't possible. If the restaurant doesn't want to deal with coins, they are free to price things on their menu in whole dollar amounts that include tax (and wouldn't it be lovely if every place did?).

I passed by an upscale restaurant in New York the other day that I once enjoyed. I noticed that they now have a 3.5% credit-card fee. The main courses are over $30. This is ridiculous. I don't want to worry about having enough cash if we decide to have another $80 bottle of wine, and I don't want to carry hundreds of dollars in cash around. Restaurants where complete meals are $15 or less might get away with it, but to charge $34 for pasta and then demand an extra $1.19 in the fine print is insulting.
​

It might depend on the business, too. If people are spending just as much with debit cards as with credit cards, for instance, that does make it easier for some to justify encouraging the former over the latter. Additionally, there are likely (not many) businesses out there where the amount cash users spend isn't much less than with cards overall.

That said...

This is one of the biggest problems with surcharging IMO. If there was a reasonable non-cash and surcharge-free alternative (likely debit cards, but maybe something like Venmo or Zelle too), people would likely have a lot less of a problem with surcharging credit cards.

Recently took one of our cars in for maintenance. The stealership now has a 3% surcharge on Visa and MC plastic (debit and credit), and doesn’t accept Amex. As it was a substantial amount, the guy writing up the service order at drop-off actually pointed out the surcharge and recommended that I bring my check book when picking up the car (I did).

There aren’t too many businesses in my neck of the woods that charge a surcharge for credit card payments. As I don’t carry much cash these days, I would certainly avoid restaurants that have a surcharge. If a mom and pop bodega has a surcharge and I buy a bottle of water or some other relative cheap item, I don’t really care (and might just pay with cash and use that opportunity to break a $20 for tips down the road).

I would ask your dealership what their warranty and dispute process is if you pay cash/check and they mess something up

If a dispute may be necessary, then paying the surcharge, earning the consumer protections as well as any rebate/miles may then be worthwhile.

Vs. a surcharge on a payment that is merely funds transfer at point of sale e.g. in-restaurant dining.

I get quarters at the bank for refilling my gallon water jugs at Publix. I'm not paying a 10 cent surcharge on a 50 cent transaction!