Originally Posted by lsquare

I posted an article in the "New York" forum about NYC restaurants having the right to add surcharges now. I was in NYC last week and I didn't see any restaurants that I frequented adding surcharges. Maybe the ones that have tried felt the pushback from consumers. I don't think it'll be that easy to add a surcharge.

Originally Posted by tmiw

Mobile Contactless Payments Will Account for Less Than 2% of US Retail Sales This Year. Note that the same article also mentions various reasons for "optimism" for its future prospects in the US, the biggest being the card transaction volume currently flowing through contactless-enabled terminals.



Why not? There are a lot of people out there who don't care that much about maximizing rewards and just want to use one card for everything. "2% cash back if you tap your phone" is simple enough to understand over trying to figure out if a restaurant actually codes as one with the CSR (for example).



IMO, contactless is the networks' second chance at fixing the various compatibility/convenience issues that have arisen between US and foreign cards. EMV was supposed to have done so, but considering that there are still articles like this being published (plus the multiple thousands of comments in the EMV threads on FT alone), that obviously hasn't happened. At least contactless seems to be getting taken more seriously this time, as evidenced by the various card network mandates requiring that it be enabled on non-US terminals.

Anyway, even if Apple Pay and the other mobile wallets do end up being a deemed market failure here, they've ensured that merchant acceptance of contactless cards is remotely close to what it is elsewhere. Otherwise, Chase and other issuers definitely wouldn't have bothered trying to issue them again, ensuring we'd likely still be about a decade or so behind (at best) and facing a possible future where non-US issuers issue physical cards only for expected US travel (due to the lack of contactless here).



Apples and oranges comparison (pun unintended). One of those can only be used at one chain (which can easily ensure that it's supported at all locations and provide specific incentives for its use), while the other is usable everywhere that has NFC enabled on their terminals/PIN pads and relies on retailers and card issuers to provide the value add.

Plus, I'm pretty sure PYMNTS has been claiming that Apple Pay is/will be a failure since almost the beginning. Why, I'm not sure.



The fact that most places use the chip now (without there having to be government/card network mandates) disproves this. Granted, it likely would have happened faster and more extensively were it mandated, as I'm not sure the liability shift was sufficient motivation for many.



My last pay at the table experience in the US involved the server inserting my card for me and leaving the Clover device for me to choose the tip and sign while he went to check on other customers. What additional service is given when the card's taken away to be run at some central location, especially when I'm going to have to write down the tip and sign anyway? If there's any awkwardness being caused by the pay at the table experience, it's the restaurant doing it wrong.

Also, if they otherwise provided good service, I'd like them to get all of their deserved tip. Not like the one restaurant I recently went to that fat-fingered on the terminal after I left and ended up giving themselves far less than what I had written down. Never mind having to call/visit the restaurant again (or worse, initiate a chargeback) if the server ends up giving him or herself more.



Sure. However, if it turns out that they won't be able to, say, reject Visa Infinite cards, I could see surcharges for all credit cards becoming way more of a thing (assuming there's no pushback from consumers if a major retailer tries it). They already succeeded at getting interchange capped for debit cards and getting the right to prohibit routing debit card transactions over Visa/MC, so they're likely less bothered by those than in the past.



Are merchants specifically liable for fraudulent contactless transactions in Canada? I thought liability in general only shifted if one didn't have chip readers (assuming that EMV wasn't mandated by law in any particular country).

Originally Posted by RedSun

Also remember, US is pro business. If the merchants do not want to comply with the requirements to have NFC terminals, then they do not have to get it. No one can force anyone to adopt the new technology.

Originally Posted by RedSun

A lot people even use cash and debit. Those transactions combined are far greater than credit card transactions.

Originally Posted by tmiw

Visa and Mastercard mandated contactless support in Europe and in my experience, nearly everyone in at least the UK had it as a result. This was two years ago, too (deadline is sometime this year IIRC). "Mandate" doesn't imply government involvement.

Besides, even if it were never mandated here, you have to admit that Apple's marketing department is pretty good if it made merchants think it was going to be big enough to justify buying in. Not even Google was able to get them to back in the Google Wallet days.

According to the Federal Reserve, cash is the majority of purchases only for ones under $10 and a plurality between $10-25. Considering that debit cards are run over Visa or MC a significant part (possibly the majority) of the time here, I wouldn't lump them in with cash.

Originally Posted by RedSun

Na, Apple knows nothing about finance and credit card payment. It just sells some fancy and over-priced gears. And a lot people just blindly follow it, IMO.

The hype of this Apple CC will just die down with only the die-hard people still keep using it. It will be quickly forgotten with a lot people....

Originally Posted by tmiw

Fortunately they partnered with a bank (Goldman Sachs) and didn't decide to become one themselves, then.

Also, if AP using the Apple Card ends up being easy and satisfying to use (which it very well may be now that cashiers are more used to phone-based payments, at least around here), people may very well continue using it after the media move onto something else. It's too early to tell given that apps still haven't officially opened to everyone.

Originally Posted by tmiw

That's not to say that there aren't reasons to have at least one or two physical cards on you, though. For one thing, it's still somewhat accepted/expected for employees to run cards for customers in certain industries/contexts, so there's no guarantee that there's a NFC enabled terminal that's easily accessible for customers. Not to mention that from experience, MST isn't 100% reliable either--at least when used from a watch.



Of course not. Otherwise we'd all be using QR codes to pay for stuff.

On that note, Venmo is probably the only one with the consumer reach to enable widespread QR code payment acceptance. PayPal seems content with keeping it P2P only and leaving the main PayPal service for B2C transactions, though (which for many can cost as much if not more than just accepting cards directly). I could see a fair number of businesses adopting Venmo quickly if it a) costed less than 1% or so to run such transactions and b) made POS integration easy for merchants.

Originally Posted by tmiw

Are merchants specifically liable for fraudulent contactless transactions in Canada? I thought liability in general only shifted if one didn't have chip readers (assuming that EMV wasn't mandated by law in any particular country).

Originally Posted by RedSun

Well, it is unfortunately with Goldman. It is not really a commercial bank.

Originally Posted by RedSun

How do you pay the waiter? You hand the phone to him, or ask him to bring the terminal to you??

Originally Posted by Magna

What does MST mean, stand for? I didn't know my Apple Watch is less reliable than using my iPhone, by about how much would you say? Good to know as I will now take out my iPhone if the Apple Watch didn't work.

Originally Posted by Magna

I've noticed lately while at Target and at a supermaket there's a bit of a lag from when NFC terminal says you're okay to when the cash registrar get the message and prints a receipt. Pharmacys, general stores have almost no lag.

Originally Posted by Magna

Never used Venmo because of the social media aspect of having all your transactions out there, but to make Venmo work, one person has to read the other's Venmo QR using their camera? Sounds more complicated than NFC because you have to line up the camera to read the QR code.

Originally Posted by Magna

DAVIDsTea, a Canadian company selling tea in the US used to take Apple Pay, and for the past year, to my surprise, they don't and won't be taking Apple Pay. Their POS terminal looks that the same as before so they have the equipment to take on Apple Pay, but have just shut it off. I asked the workers there and they don't really why they won't take Apple Pay and guessing that Apple Pay was too costly. Does it cost merchants more to use Apple Pay vs. EMV chip and dip?? In other post above in the thread a merchant covered his NFC points so they couldn't used as he thought there was a fraud problem with NFC. Is NFC less reliable than EMV? And can NFC terminal be manipulated by an Apple Watch or iPhone in a fraudulent way?

Originally Posted by tmiw

It's possible they didn't want to bother with Visa's EMV contactless mandate. That's supposedly been the reason behind a couple of other merchants disabling it, anyway.

As for cost, it should be the same regardless of whether the card's tapped or inserted--for the most part. It's possible tapping could cost merchants more if their customer base predominantly uses debit cards as the terminal may route all tapped transactions over Visa or Mastercard (which costs more than routing over another debit network, which is what is more likely to happen if inserted). Also, the issuer is supposed to be liable for 100% of all NFC transactions, so security shouldn't really come into it on the merchant side.

Originally Posted by tmiw

GS is apparently a commercial bank now. Otherwise, why bother partnering with Apple?

Ideally the latter. Or more likely, following the server to the back where the POS is since most haven't bothered buying anything wireless.

That said, if enough people do that, maybe restaurants will bother buying wireless terminals. Or at the very least, designate a POS station at the front for those who want to use their phones to pay.



MST stands for Magnetic Secure Transmission. It's something specific to Samsung devices that basically mimics a card being swiped and allows mobile payment to be used at places that don't have NFC enabled. Apple devices are NFC only and thus shouldn't matter whether you use a watch or a phone.



Yeah, it's going to depend a lot on the POS system the store's using. A lot really haven't done much optimization, which is why chip at some can be significantly slower than at others (for example).


QR is one option, or you can type in the other user's username (IIRC). In China, WeChat and Alipay QR codes are printed out on paper for customers to scan with their phones, which probably works better than trying to scan a LCD display.

Originally Posted by Magna

So for US merchants the big cost for them is buying the modern equipment that takes NFC, QR, EMV chip. The benefit is not being liable for fraud, and the fees are lower than for swipes.

I see some business still using swipe. For example, sandwich shop that doesn't have updated equipment he would be liable if those swipes he took for payment ended up being fradulent. His liability loss would be the cost of making that sandwich, say $5 for materials and labor. About how much would he cost him to upgrade this payment equipment to take NFC and EMV? Is this a big outlay for sandwich shop, so much so that it costs them more to buy updated equipment than taking hit after hit on fraudulent swipes?

Originally Posted by Magna

I see some business still using swipe. For example, sandwich shop that doesn't have updated equipment he would be liable if those swipes he took for payment ended up being fradulent. His liability loss would be the cost of making that sandwich, say $5 for materials and labor. About how much would he cost him to upgrade this payment equipment to take NFC and EMV? Is this a big outlay for sandwich shop, so much so that it costs them more to buy updated equipment than taking hit after hit on fraudulent swipes?

Originally Posted by RedSun

You asked the right question. Why GS partners with Apple? GS just opened wallet and bought this new banking venture. The only consumer banking they did prior is to take in some deposit and pay them like 2% interest. That is all.

Partners of convenience!