Isn't it safer to NOT sign Credit card?

Old Nov 10, 2017, 8:00 pm
  #1  
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Isn't it safer to NOT sign Credit card?

Recently I've been exposed to and thinking about privacy/security related stuff. And today when I received a new credit card, seeing the signature panel in the back made me think of this question:

Let's say you get your signed credit card and checkbook stolen, can't the thief copy your signature from the card to write a check as you?

If so, wouldn't it be safer to leave credit cards unsigned? At least in the US, no merchant checks the signature on the card (nor compares it to what you sign on the receipt).

Or is this not a likely possibility, and unnecessary to consider?

Thanks.
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Old Nov 10, 2017, 8:16 pm
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I never sign my credit cards and they all have the chip now. Only once when I was overseas, I was asked to sign my card. There was a big sign at the counter saying "card is not valid unless signed"
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 2:27 am
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Originally Posted by kayanco
Recently I've been exposed to and thinking about privacy/security related stuff. And today when I received a new credit card, seeing the signature panel in the back made me think of this question:

Let's say you get your signed credit card and checkbook stolen, can't the thief copy your signature from the card to write a check as you?

If so, wouldn't it be safer to leave credit cards unsigned? At least in the US, no merchant checks the signature on the card (nor compares it to what you sign on the receipt).

Or is this not a likely possibility, and unnecessary to consider?

Thanks.
1. If​​​​​If you don't sign it, the thief can. Because you didn't take reasonable precautions, zero liability won't apply.

2. Why on earth are you carrying a checkbook around with you??? Quit doing that if you care at all about security.
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 9:35 am
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Originally Posted by carnivaltime
I never sign my credit cards and they all have the chip now. Only once when I was overseas, I was asked to sign my card. There was a big sign at the counter saying "card is not valid unless signed"

Thanks for sharing. That must be years ago. I think these days your card won't even leave your hands, so no one is going to check if you signed it or it.
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 9:50 am
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Banks don't look at signatures either (unless you're a non-customer trying to cash a check).

The signature on the card is what binds you to the cardholder agreement, so vendors are supposed to require a signed card and nowadays almost all of my cards say "no valid unless signed" next to the signature panel.
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 9:51 am
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Originally Posted by AllieKat
1. If​​​​​If you don't sign it, the thief can. Because you didn't take reasonable precautions, zero liability won't apply.

2. Why on earth are you carrying a checkbook around with you??? Quit doing that if you care at all about security.
1. Sure the thief can do that. But what additional advantage would it give him? Meaning, what can he do with signing it, that he can't leaving it unsigned?
Someone I know uses an unsigned card in US and overseas, and I just asked, there wasn't anything he couldn't buy because of that.

As for liability, I've myself disputed charges, never did the CC company ask if my card was signed or not. Have you had a different experience? Or do you know of cases where the CC company: sorry you didn't sign your card, so we won't cover you.

2. Good point Maybe I'm just old school LOL.
But you could have a break-in.

My overall point is:
Signing a CC doesn't give any additional benefit over leaving is unsigned. BUT it does create a risk of exposing your signature. Even if it's a very small risk, it is there without a benefit to compensate.
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 9:56 am
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The official rule of credit cards:
"A credit card is not legally activated until signed." The signature validates the credit card like a signature validates a contract. Simple possession of the contract does not mean that you are legally bound to its terms nor that you agree to the terms of the contract. If you do not sign the card, you have in effect not agreed to the terms of the card as an instrument of payment and therefore are not agreeing to the terms of the card. From a contractual stand point, any merchant that accepts the card without it being signed is not making a complete agreement for future payment.

The supposed rule of credit cards:
The merchant should match the signature to the example on the back of the card. Doing so will prevent theft because the two should match. If a thief finds a card that is signed, they cannot sign it and also can not match the signature. If the card is not signed, the thief can now sign the card and the thieves signature of the name on the card will match the one on the card signature panel, because the thief signed it himself. This method only works when the merchant actually verifies the card. However, if only a few merchants check, there is still a small chance of a thief being caught.

I have had my signature panel checked multiple times. When a cashier asks for my ID, I refuse and say, "it is signed". They cannot legally demand my ID. Once they see it is signed and the signatures match, I am on my way.

I hope this is detailed enough and helpful.
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 10:10 am
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As someone who has been the victim of card fraud on no less than 7 separate occasions, I can tell you, it makes zero difference whether you sign the card or not.

Firstly, nobody checks the signature. The vast majority of cashiers either don't have the time or just can't be bothered. I say that as a part-time cashier myself. I'm not a police officer and I'm not paid enough to argue with a potential thief simply because someone's handwriting looks a bit off.

Secondly, copying a signature is a ludicrously easy thing to do. In this day and age, we really need to get away from the idea that you can positively identify a person by the way they write their name.

In my experience, the vast majority of fraud these days takes place without the thief taking possession of the physical card.

The card is either cloned by a skimming device attached to an ATM or POS machine, or increasingly, wirelessly read by portable scanning devices.

Then the details are imparted onto a duplicate card, which the thief can then use with impunity, until it gets blocked (or maxed out) and transactions start getting declined.

Otherwise, the card number is simply used online. The most low-tech fraud perpetrated against me was about 15 years ago, when a contractor at my dad's house copied down my card number and used it to run up a couple of grand on phone-sex lines.

The bottom line is, there is simply no way to protect yourself 100% against card fraud. I have just given up now and accepted that, every now and then, I have to go through the rigmarole of reporting fraudulent transactions, signing declarations to get the money back, and ordering new cards.

Frankly, it's less hassle to have to do that every few years, than it is to try to use every protective measure in the book on an everyday basis, which quite honestly is a losing battle.
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 11:01 am
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Originally Posted by carnivaltime
I never sign my credit cards and they all have the chip now. Only once when I was overseas, I was asked to sign my card. There was a big sign at the counter saying "card is not valid unless signed"
+1

Originally Posted by AllieKat
1. If​​​​​ you don't sign it, the thief can. Because you didn't take reasonable precautions, zero liability won't apply.

2. Why on earth are you carrying a checkbook around with you??? Quit doing that if you care at all about security.
+1

Originally Posted by kayanco
My overall point is:
Signing a CC doesn't give any additional benefit over leaving is unsigned. BUT it does create a risk of exposing your signature. Even if it's a very small risk, it is there without a benefit to compensate.
So few places these days take checks, I have not carried one in YEARS.

I sign my CC if I remember to or when once or twice someone wants to see my signature in Europe.

Funny story, actually in Canada where we mostly use chip or contactless (I have US issued cards), at Bulk Barn they wanted to compare my signature, so I signed CC on the spot, and the clerk just gave ma a look. Not a nice look ..... but it was only about 10 bucks, so they were happy just to check my DL.
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 11:15 am
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Originally Posted by EasternTraveler
The official rule of credit cards:
"A credit card is not legally activated until signed." The signature validates the credit card like a signature validates a contract. Simple possession of the contract does not mean that you are legally bound to its terms nor that you agree to the terms of the contract. If you do not sign the card, you have in effect not agreed to the terms of the card as an instrument of payment and therefore are not agreeing to the terms of the card. From a contractual stand point, any merchant that accepts the card without it being signed is not making a complete agreement for future payment.

The supposed rule of credit cards:
The merchant should match the signature to the example on the back of the card. Doing so will prevent theft because the two should match. If a thief finds a card that is signed, they cannot sign it and also can not match the signature. If the card is not signed, the thief can now sign the card and the thieves signature of the name on the card will match the one on the card signature panel, because the thief signed it himself. This method only works when the merchant actually verifies the card. However, if only a few merchants check, there is still a small chance of a thief being caught.

I have had my signature panel checked multiple times. When a cashier asks for my ID, I refuse and say, "it is signed". They cannot legally demand my ID. Once they see it is signed and the signatures match, I am on my way.

I hope this is detailed enough and helpful.
Thanks for your response.

"If you do not sign the card, you have in effect not agreed to the terms of the card." I don't believe this is accurate. You have already agreed to all terms and conditions when you apply for the card. The CC won't even issue you a card if you've not agreed to their terms.
One way to think through this is to ask, what would happen if I make a large purchase and then say: Even though your terms state that I must pay you back, but since I've not signed my card, those terms don't apply to me. Or I won't pay that APR%, etc.

The CC company would never leave such a thing at the discretion of the customer.

Another point I hear is: The thief can sign the card.
Well sure he can, but he won't need to. It won't enable him to do anything extra vs. leaving it unsigned.

Originally Posted by The_Bouncer
As someone who has been the victim of card fraud on no less than 7 separate occasions, I can tell you, it makes zero difference whether you sign the card or not.

Firstly, nobody checks the signature. The vast majority of cashiers either don't have the time or just can't be bothered. I say that as a part-time cashier myself. I'm not a police officer and I'm not paid enough to argue with a potential thief simply because someone's handwriting looks a bit off.

Secondly, copying a signature is a ludicrously easy thing to do. In this day and age, we really need to get away from the idea that you can positively identify a person by the way they write their name.

In my experience, the vast majority of fraud these days takes place without the thief taking possession of the physical card.

The card is either cloned by a skimming device attached to an ATM or POS machine, or increasingly, wirelessly read by portable scanning devices.

Then the details are imparted onto a duplicate card, which the thief can then use with impunity, until it gets blocked (or maxed out) and transactions start getting declined.

Otherwise, the card number is simply used online. The most low-tech fraud perpetrated against me was about 15 years ago, when a contractor at my dad's house copied down my card number and used it to run up a couple of grand on phone-sex lines.

The bottom line is, there is simply no way to protect yourself 100% against card fraud. I have just given up now and accepted that, every now and then, I have to go through the rigmarole of reporting fraudulent transactions, signing declarations to get the money back, and ordering new cards.

Frankly, it's less hassle to have to do that every few years, than it is to try to use every protective measure in the book on an everyday basis, which quite honestly is a losing battle.
Excellent post.

Mostly your card never leaves your hand. And the cashier never checks it.

If it was such a big deal, merchants would train their cashiers to verify:
that the card is signed and secondly to match the signature.

If anyone doubts this, I can suggest two mini experiments:
- Next time instead of signing, just scribble something on the receipt and see what happens.
- On the rare occasion you do have to hand your card to the cashier, notice if they look at the back?

In the US, for the most part, the only time the card leaves your hand is at restaurants. By the time the server collects your signed receipt, you are already out of the restaurant. If this was such a big deal, they would verify the signature before you left.

Originally Posted by AllieKat
1. If​​​​​If you don't sign it, the thief can. Because you didn't take reasonable precautions, zero liability won't apply.

2. Why on earth are you carrying a checkbook around with you??? Quit doing that if you care at all about security.

Wells Fargo:
We recommend that people sign the back of their cards, though its not required, spokeswoman Cristie Drumm said. All Wells Fargo cards come with zero liability in the case of fraud.
http://www.denverpost.com/2007/09/02/see-id-dont-do-it

Last edited by EmailKid; Nov 11, 2017 at 12:01 pm
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 2:04 pm
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Originally Posted by kayanco
Wells Fargo:
We recommend that people sign the back of their cards, though its not required, spokeswoman Cristie Drumm said. All Wells Fargo cards come with zero liability in the case of fraud.
http://www.denverpost.com/2007/09/02/see-id-dont-do-it
I don't really believe that spokeswoman. My Wells Fargo card says "not valid unless signed" in both Engish and Spanish on the back.

Sure, there's no practical difference or anything Wells can do if it isn't signed, but what she says doesn't align with what they print on their cards.
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 2:37 pm
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Does FT forum auto-combines multiple replies? or does a moderator do it?
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 2:43 pm
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Originally Posted by kayanco
2. Good point Maybe I'm just old school LOL.
But you could have a break-in.
Not only don't I carry my checkbook (I can't remember how many years it's been since I've had to write a physical check; the only "checks" I've "written" in recent years have been through online billpay), I keep it well hidden in a "not obvious" place. So someone would have to go rummaging through the whole house in search of hidden stuff to find it.
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 2:53 pm
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We sign our cards, and hubby writes below it "Please ask for photo I.D". Now merchants don't really check signatures but he does get asked for I.D for his because of this. Now this only really matters on his debit card, not his credit card, but it makes him feel better. Does it help much? Probably not
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Old Nov 11, 2017, 3:06 pm
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Originally Posted by kayanco

or does a moderator do it?
We do it by hand. Makes the thread easier to follow.

~moderator
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