Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Credit, Debit and Prepaid Card Programs > Credit Card Programs
Reload this Page >

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

Old Jan 16, 2017, 11:23 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: serpens


Older (archived) threads:
2012-2015 2016

What is EMV?
EMV is a standard for smart (or integrated-circuit, or chip) cards and the devices that can accept them. The standards are maintained by EMVCo and based on ISO 7816 (or ISO 14443 for contactless).

These cards come in two flavours: contact and contactless. Examples below:
----------------------------------------------------------

Notice the contactless indicator on the right-hand side (it looks like a sideways Wi-Fi symbol). It may also be found on the back of the card (for example, on the back of the new Costco credit card).


Where can I get a chip card?

Hawaiian717 operates a website with crowd-sourced information about various cards. You can adjust the search parameters to see cards with contactless, have PIN-primary authentication, etc.

Which businesses accept chip cards?

tmiw operates a website, also primarily crowd-sourced, that tracks chip-enabled merchants on a map. You can see if a merchant supports PIN, contactless, Quick Chip, et al.

Why doesn't my chip card ask for a PIN?

This is likely because you have a signature-preferring card. At this time, PIN-preferring cards issued in the US are rare. Not many financial institutions offer them; most of them instead provide Chip-and-Signature cards, which are programmed to prefer signature over PIN, if the card supports PIN at all.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?

To the cardholder, the only major difference is how they authenticate themselves at the point of sale. The cardholder inserts their card as normal; instead of signing a screen or receipt, they will be asked to enter their PIN on the keypad.

[spoiler]

A few financial institutions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees.

Why no PIN? (cont.)
American debit cards are unique because they are psuedo-PIN-preferring cards. which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN? (cont.)

Most cards issued in the US are programmed to prefer signature, so save very few instances, they will prompt for a signature (unless the merchant sets a signature waiver). A PIN may be necessary in countries with mostly PIN-preferring cards when using unattended terminals (such as pay-at-the-pump or mass transit). If the card has a PIN for backup verification or ATMs, then that PIN should work. Otherwise, the card will be rejected. If the card is rejected, then either a.) the transaction must be performed by an attendant or b.) an alternative payment method will be required.

Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM (Cardholder Verification Method) as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.


I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.


There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote its capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.

In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s, and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the de-facto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
Print Wikipost

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

Old May 18, 2017, 9:57 pm
  #1531  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: HHonors, TrueBlue, Delta SkyMiles, Hyatt Discoverist, Starwood Preferred Guest, American Airlines.
Posts: 2,035
Originally Posted by emmanuel_t
I don't see how that's relevant. They also do have authority...
Because we're discussing debit card laws at the moment.

They have authority but not legislative authority.
mikesyr18 is offline  
Old May 18, 2017, 10:04 pm
  #1532  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: HHonors, TrueBlue, Delta SkyMiles, Hyatt Discoverist, Starwood Preferred Guest, American Airlines.
Posts: 2,035
Originally Posted by tmiw
The Electronic Funds Transfer Act is a law, though, as it passed both houses of Congress and was signed by the President at the time. It also gave the Federal Reserve authority to implement said law, as evidenced by the page from their website.

BTW the Fed's leadership is nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate. I'm not sure how that doesn't make them part of the government.
Yes but the Federal Reserve adds to the EFTA. The law itself is weak.

Your conclusions also are not completely true. Congress "over sees" the Federal Reserve by way of the board of governors, who is a government agency. See the chart on the page below:

https://www.federalreserve.gov/about...rve-system.htm

Ultimately congress is in charge, they just let the president think he is.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With that said I would also like to retract my comments towards Allie and EMV at McDonalds. It does seem to work after the cashier pushes the card button, which is a pain because the terminal does say "insert/swipe card" before that button is pushed. My AMEX worked there today, but obviously it's not EMV contactless as expected because the receipt just says "contactless."

Last edited by mikesyr18; May 18, 2017 at 10:18 pm
mikesyr18 is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 1:21 am
  #1533  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
Originally Posted by mikesyr18
With that said I would also like to retract my comments towards Allie and EMV at McDonalds. It does seem to work after the cashier pushes the card button, which is a pain because the terminal does say "insert/swipe card" before that button is pushed. My AMEX worked there today, but obviously it's not EMV contactless as expected because the receipt just says "contactless."
I'm shocked it isn't EMV contactless at your McDonald's. It's the one place that at all locations consistently was for me. This was with a physical Amex card, right?

I, too, am no fan of of terminals saying insert/swipe before the total is received. It encourages people to do so (putting them at risk) and it means people may never realise a place has contactless if they always insert before they see the logo.
AllieKat is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 1:31 am
  #1534  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: HHonors, TrueBlue, Delta SkyMiles, Hyatt Discoverist, Starwood Preferred Guest, American Airlines.
Posts: 2,035
Originally Posted by AllieKat
I'm shocked it isn't EMV contactless at your McDonald's. It's the one place that at all locations consistently was for me. This was with a physical Amex card, right?

I, too, am no fan of of terminals saying insert/swipe before the total is received. It encourages people to do so (putting them at risk) and it means people may never realise a place has contactless if they always insert before they see the logo.
It probably is EMV contactess but AMEX contactless isn't EMV in the states. Yes it was with a physical card.

I believe if you try to swipe or insert before the total button is pressed at McDonalds you have to remove your card/re-insert it, or swipe it again.
mikesyr18 is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 1:41 am
  #1535  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
Originally Posted by mikesyr18
It probably is EMV contactess but AMEX contactless isn't EMV in the states. Yes it was with a physical card.

I believe if you try to swipe or insert before the total button is pressed at McDonalds you have to remove your card/re-insert it, or swipe it again.
Yes it is. Only Apple Pay and Android Pay aren't, the physical Amex cards are EMV contactless. And they support ODA so they work on TfL services!
AllieKat is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 3:44 am
  #1536  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,433
Originally Posted by mikesyr18
Yes but the Federal Reserve adds to the EFTA. The law itself is weak.
The text of the law itself seems like it's very close to what the Federal Reserve's page says, if not exactly the same.

Also, it still doesn't change the fact that the EFTA specifically states that the Federal Reserve is responsible for writing regulations to implement and enforce it.

Originally Posted by mikesyr18
My AMEX worked there today, but obviously it's not EMV contactless as expected because the receipt just says "contactless."
A recent receipt of mine from there shows that they do support EMV contactless:

tmiw is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 4:18 am
  #1537  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: HHonors, TrueBlue, Delta SkyMiles, Hyatt Discoverist, Starwood Preferred Guest, American Airlines.
Posts: 2,035
Originally Posted by tmiw
The text of the law itself seems like it's very close to what the Federal Reserve's page says, if not exactly the same.
Perhaps you just don't understand the idea of what we're saying.

The actual text of the Electronic Funds Transfer Act says you're responsible for up to $50 of fraud if it's reported to your bank within two business days. After that you're responsible for up to $500, and then unlimited after 60 days.

The only group of people who can write laws is Congress. Congress gave the authority to the Federal Reserve to write regulations (not laws); therefore, the EFTA still remains what I explained above despite what the Federal Reserve says.

The Federal Reserve can add more regulations to protect consumers, but cannot take them away to the point where they are below what the EFTA allows. If the Federal Reserve suddenly allowed banks to abide by the bare minimum requirements of what the EFTA protects consumers with, Congress wouldn't care.

The ETFA really is an outdated law and should be updated to match what the credit card laws say.

Also, 10 McNuggets and a medium Coke is $7.49 where you live? Are you kidding? lol.

Last edited by mikesyr18; May 19, 2017 at 4:26 am
mikesyr18 is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 12:13 pm
  #1538  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,433
Originally Posted by mikesyr18
Perhaps you just don't understand the idea of what we're saying.

The actual text of the Electronic Funds Transfer Act says you're responsible for up to $50 of fraud if it's reported to your bank within two business days. After that you're responsible for up to $500, and then unlimited after 60 days.

The only group of people who can write laws is Congress. Congress gave the authority to the Federal Reserve to write regulations (not laws); therefore, the EFTA still remains what I explained above despite what the Federal Reserve says.

The Federal Reserve can add more regulations to protect consumers, but cannot take them away to the point where they are below what the EFTA allows. If the Federal Reserve suddenly allowed banks to abide by the bare minimum requirements of what the EFTA protects consumers with, Congress wouldn't care.

The ETFA really is an outdated law and should be updated to match what the credit card laws say.
What we've been saying is that we already have zero liability in practice. Sure, banks could return all but $500 of the fraudulent charges because they're allowed to, but there would be massive backlash as a result. If that was happening frequently, then yeah, we should consider tightening up the EFTA.

Also, for the most common fraud types (CNP and counterfeit), liability is already zero. I don't see that changing any time soon, again because there'd be massive backlash. The regulation process also makes sudden changes like what you've described difficult, especially if they can't be justified with evidence.

BTW a significant reason why Canadian banks tend to hold cardholders liable (other than the law letting them) is that there aren't many banks up there.
tmiw is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 12:58 pm
  #1539  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 38
Android Pay is expanding to new markets, and expanding its U.S. capabilities. click on: http://www.androidcentral.com/androi...-peer-payments
scape is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 3:20 pm
  #1540  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,433
I saw this at SAN's short term parking recently. Any chance EMV's actually enabled considering the instructions? Also, what's that icon on the lower-right of the card slot mean?
Attached Images  
tmiw is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 5:07 pm
  #1541  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,592
Originally Posted by tmiw
I saw this at SAN's short term parking recently. Any chance EMV's actually enabled considering the instructions? Also, what's that icon on the lower-right of the card slot mean?
Maybe they have an RFID pass (for employees?).
emmanuel_t is offline  
Old May 19, 2017, 5:15 pm
  #1542  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,433
Originally Posted by emmanuel_t
Maybe they have an RFID pass (for employees?).
I think there's a separate lot for employees but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Anyway I don't remember seeing a keypad so it's probably no CVM only if EMV is in fact enabled.
tmiw is offline  
Old May 20, 2017, 10:50 pm
  #1543  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,433
I went to a newly opened boba place today and apparently they use Revel to ring everything up and a Clover Mini to run cards. Seems like kind of a waste of money to me but eh.

Also, I've been seeing more and more UnionPay stickers in shop windows lately. Maybe they're about to roll out native support for it in the US instead of going over Discover?

BTW Diners Club ran without PIN on the Clover Mini. Unknown if PIN's disabled altogether or just for small amounts (for this particular location or most/all Clover using merchants).
tmiw is offline  
Old May 21, 2017, 12:12 am
  #1544  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: HHonors, TrueBlue, Delta SkyMiles, Hyatt Discoverist, Starwood Preferred Guest, American Airlines.
Posts: 2,035
Originally Posted by tmiw
I went to a newly opened boba place today and apparently they use Revel to ring everything up and a Clover Mini to run cards. Seems like kind of a waste of money to me but eh.

Also, I've been seeing more and more UnionPay stickers in shop windows lately. Maybe they're about to roll out native support for it in the US instead of going over Discover?

BTW Diners Club ran without PIN on the Clover Mini. Unknown if PIN's disabled altogether or just for small amounts (for this particular location or most/all Clover using merchants).
I don't see the need for merchants to take Union Pay in the U.S, as its primarily a network for Chinese merchants.

The only way the card will continue to be accepted here is if they stay partnered with one of the four card networks... Currently Discover.
mikesyr18 is offline  
Old May 21, 2017, 12:49 am
  #1545  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,433
Originally Posted by mikesyr18
I don't see the need for merchants to take Union Pay in the U.S, as its primarily a network for Chinese merchants.

The only way the card will continue to be accepted here is if they stay partnered with one of the four card networks... Currently Discover.
ICBC's US arm issues UnionPay cards now so it's not exactly just for Chinese anymore. It's also not completely out of the question for other banks and credit unions to issue them if they so desire, much like that one credit union that issues V PAY cards for people who travel to Europe (except unlike V PAY there's no geographic restriction for UnionPay cards).

Realistically, I'd imagine there'll have to be at least some support for the UnionPay AIDs eventually so that using such cards here isn't a complete pain.
tmiw is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.