Jan 16, 2017, 6:55 am
Last edit by: storewanderer
Older (archived) threads: 2014-16
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- What is EMV contactless?
EMV contactless is a form of contactless/NFC that uses the same security and encryption that is used when inserting a chip card into an EMV-enabled terminal. Other than not having to sign/enter a PIN for smaller transactions, the security is effectively the same as chip and PIN/chip and signature.
In contrast, MSD contactless is an older version that is designed just and only for the United States. This effectively uses much the same flow as a swiped card transaction with the same rules.
- What is CDCVM?
CDCVM stands for Consumer Device Cardholder Verification Method. It's a method of telling the terminal that the customer verified their identity using their mobile device. Terminals that support it will waive the signature/PIN requirement typically in place for larger transactions, potentially saving time at checkout.
More info: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202527
- Does EMV contactless need to be supported to support CDCVM?
Typically, yes. (However, there are some exceptions below.)
- Why can't I tap my foreign-issued contactless card at most places in the US?
This is likely because the store does not support EMV contactless. Foreign issued contactless cards typically do not support MSD contactless since other markets have had EMV for quite some time. In contrast, most stores in the US have yet to get the necessary certifications/software for EMV contactless so they are typically MSD-only--if contactless is enabled at all. (See below for a list of stores where your card will likely work.)
- I paid for a purchase with Apple/Android/Samsung Pay and still had to sign for it.
Most likely, the store in question does not have EMV contactless enabled (see above question). However, there are instances where CDCVM does not work even with EMV contactless enabled. Restaurants that allow tip adjust, for example--where the tip amount is written on a paper receipt and entered by the staff later--cannot support CDCVM. It may simply be a matter of the merchant's processor or the POS software in use not supporting it too.
Another common reason is if you used a US-issued AmEx card with a mobile wallet. AmEx currently does not allow EMV contactless support in mobile wallets for these cards, so they always run as MSD contactless. Because of this, CDCVM is not supported (with very few exceptions, as noted below).
Note: if you used Samsung Pay, you may have paid with MST instead of NFC. Since MST emulates the magnetic pulses that the terminal receives when swiping a regular card, the normal magstripe rules apply.
- How can I tell whether EMV contactless was used?
An easy way to tell if you have Apple Pay is to pay with a Visa or MC while in airplane mode. Wallet will then show a transaction amount next to "Payment" for the card that was used. Alternatively, EMV-related information will typically print on the receipt (AID, etc.) if EMV contactless was used.
(Non-exhaustive) list of EMV contactless supporting merchants in the US:
- 7-Eleven
- 99 Ranch
- Albertsons (Safeway, Vons, Pak N Save, Jewel, Acme, Shaws, Star, Carrs, Randalls, Tom Thumb, Haggen, Eagle, Lucky UT/SoCal)
- Apple Store*†
- Athleta
- Auntie Anne’s Pretzels
- Banana Republic
- Costco Wholesale
- CVS
- DuaneReade*
- El Pollo Loco
- EG Group US (Quik Stop, Kwik Shop, Tom Thumb, Turkey Hill) Note: cashier must press "Electronic Payment" to activate NFC
- Five Below*
- Five Guys
- GAP
- Grocery Outlet*
- Harmon's Grocery
- H&M*
- Jolibee
- Kohl's*
- Lush Cosmetics*
- Maverik
- McDonald's*
- Meijer
- Old Navy
- Panera Bread
- PetSmart
- Ray's Food Place
- Round Table Pizza
- Royal Farms
- Red Ribbon Bakeshop
- Sheetz
- Sherm's Thunderbird Discount Markets Inc.*
- Sprouts
- Staples*
- Starbucks*
- Subway
- Walgreens*
- Weis Markets
- All businesses that use Square and support contactless*
- All businesses that use Clover and support EMV†**
- All businesses that use First Data standalone terminals (e.g. FD100+FD35, FD130) with EMV enabled**
* CDCVM support confirmed
** CDCVM support depends on store/restaurant
† CDCVM supported in MSD mode
USA contactless credit/debit/transit (2017 - 2021)
Feb 14, 2019, 2:54 pm
#5656
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 451
My local Costco has the verifone contactless things on their pumps, but they're not enabled - it blinks green once but doesn't worth, the prompt shows "Please insert card" and it processes as "swipe" - not EMV.
Interestingly enough, my state liquor stores have contactless now but it requires signature on every transaction and it seems to require double tap - which is weird. You say yes, that's the correct thing, then tap and then tap again then sign... convoluted.
Interestingly enough, my state liquor stores have contactless now but it requires signature on every transaction and it seems to require double tap - which is weird. You say yes, that's the correct thing, then tap and then tap again then sign... convoluted.
Feb 14, 2019, 5:49 pm
#5657
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Chase Freedom Unlimited in Google Pay worked at Vons this morning. With your contactless card test and my previous Visa debit card test, I think we can assume that Visa cards are fine at Safeway. I'll need to re-add my Diners Club MC to Google Pay and try that next, though I wonder if I'll have the same issues I did with the Citi Pay app.
I tried tapping a Mastercard through Google Pay this morning and the pin pad said 'Not authorized'. When the self-checkout attendant stopped by, the machine stated that the card had an EMV chip and needed to be inserted. Visa EMV contactless still works great, but it does appear that this update broke everything else. As a slightly happy note, the pin pad now says 'Insert, Tap, or Slide'.
So everything is broken now except Visa?
Feb 14, 2019, 5:51 pm
#5658
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Probably, but I suspect MSD-only AmEx will work if it's truly because of something EMV contactless related.
Feb 14, 2019, 5:54 pm
#5659
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Anyway, going back to Kroger for a minute, is there any truth to this post?
I mean, I'm not sure how much exactly it'd end up being, but I can't imagine it'd be that much for a company as big as them. Then again, they hate Visa/MC, so perhaps any amount is too much.
To enable Verifone on their terminals, they'll pay extra -- more in Vault fees for Verifone, more in enabling the terminals, more for the software that Verifone uses to process those payments...
Kroger doesn't even customize their terminals -- something that runs maybe $25-30 per Verifone -- so, it doesn't surprise me that they're bucking Apple Pay....which seems completely about-face to what the "new digital innovation" that Kroger seems to be doing. (Oh! We've got money to hire resources now!)...instead of spending $$ on things to help their staff or customers...let's just reinvent the wheel.
Kroger doesn't even customize their terminals -- something that runs maybe $25-30 per Verifone -- so, it doesn't surprise me that they're bucking Apple Pay....which seems completely about-face to what the "new digital innovation" that Kroger seems to be doing. (Oh! We've got money to hire resources now!)...instead of spending $$ on things to help their staff or customers...let's just reinvent the wheel.
Feb 14, 2019, 8:00 pm
#5660
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Keep in mind that Kroger really hates the card networks, possibly more than Walmart. Even if their app fails that might not cause contactless to get enabled.
BTW the card networks really should have done a contactless mandate for the US. By 2023 every terminal in the rest of the world will have it enabled; it'll look stupid to be the only place where contactless can't be used everywhere.
BTW the card networks really should have done a contactless mandate for the US. By 2023 every terminal in the rest of the world will have it enabled; it'll look stupid to be the only place where contactless can't be used everywhere.
The question is why. What do these merchants have against Contactless payments?
Kroger is so tone deaf it is almost funny. But then, it is kind of sad. Competitors already failed with this app QR Code based thing years ago. And what happened to that Chase Pay arrangement they were supposed to have?
What gets me the most here is Kroger's self checkouts have no way to scan a QR code unless they add new equipment. Yet back when Kroger announced Chase Pay one of their "reasons" for going with it instead of Contactless was "they could use existing equipment." I suspect they are currently having to do equipment upgrades to get these QR code based payments to even work.
Feb 14, 2019, 8:06 pm
#5661
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Now this is even more weird. I went to a Maverik yesterday in Carson City, NV on Highway 50 East. This one has Gilbarco pumps and has the "built in" NFC reader. It is on the new Maverik software and requires zip code prompt. I almost didn't try it, but I decided why not, so I tried Android Pay. It processed just fine no problems. I hung up the nozzle and tried it again this time purposely entering the wrong zip code. And then it declined. So it appears the AVS is working on Android Pay... there.
Curious I stopped at a newer Maverik today with those same Gilbarco pumps, but the NFC reader is instead one of those little square Verifone attachments. It read, then after enter zip code it failed and shows up in Android Pay as "Declined."
So is this a weird hardware issue or some kind of a software issue?
Curious I stopped at a newer Maverik today with those same Gilbarco pumps, but the NFC reader is instead one of those little square Verifone attachments. It read, then after enter zip code it failed and shows up in Android Pay as "Declined."
So is this a weird hardware issue or some kind of a software issue?
Feb 15, 2019, 12:29 am
#5662
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I wonder if some of these retailers who seem to hate Contactless (seems to be Kroger and Wal Mart, the others are coming around) would try to sue in the US and say they shouldn't be forced to provide "multiple card acceptance interfaces" and if they accept EMV Chip that is sufficient to enable them to "honor all cards."
The question is why. What do these merchants have against Contactless payments?
Kroger is so tone deaf it is almost funny. But then, it is kind of sad. Competitors already failed with this app QR Code based thing years ago. And what happened to that Chase Pay arrangement they were supposed to have?
What gets me the most here is Kroger's self checkouts have no way to scan a QR code unless they add new equipment. Yet back when Kroger announced Chase Pay one of their "reasons" for going with it instead of Contactless was "they could use existing equipment." I suspect they are currently having to do equipment upgrades to get these QR code based payments to even work.
The question is why. What do these merchants have against Contactless payments?
Kroger is so tone deaf it is almost funny. But then, it is kind of sad. Competitors already failed with this app QR Code based thing years ago. And what happened to that Chase Pay arrangement they were supposed to have?
What gets me the most here is Kroger's self checkouts have no way to scan a QR code unless they add new equipment. Yet back when Kroger announced Chase Pay one of their "reasons" for going with it instead of Contactless was "they could use existing equipment." I suspect they are currently having to do equipment upgrades to get these QR code based payments to even work.
As for why, it really comes down to the same merchant vs. network fight that's been going on for decades. Only this time, they have a chance to potentially go away from the latter altogether. It's why they tried to make CurrentC a thing, and why some of the former members went out on their own after that failed. I really think that if Visa/MC offered some sort of reduction in interchange for contactless transactions, many of the remaining holdouts would enable it (depending on the amount, anyway; they might want to see levels close to the EU's 0.2-0.3% to even think about it).
Re: Chase Pay--are Kroger's current barcode scanners capable of QR scanning? I know that Best Buy uses the same ones they use to scan items to run Chase Pay, but for all I know they had them long before they signed up to accept it.
Feb 15, 2019, 9:30 am
#5663
Join Date: Oct 2014
Programs: Skymiles
Posts: 3,250
Now this is even more weird. I went to a Maverik yesterday in Carson City, NV on Highway 50 East. This one has Gilbarco pumps and has the "built in" NFC reader. It is on the new Maverik software and requires zip code prompt. I almost didn't try it, but I decided why not, so I tried Android Pay. It processed just fine no problems. I hung up the nozzle and tried it again this time purposely entering the wrong zip code. And then it declined. So it appears the AVS is working on Android Pay... there.
Curious I stopped at a newer Maverik today with those same Gilbarco pumps, but the NFC reader is instead one of those little square Verifone attachments. It read, then after enter zip code it failed and shows up in Android Pay as "Declined."
So is this a weird hardware issue or some kind of a software issue?
Curious I stopped at a newer Maverik today with those same Gilbarco pumps, but the NFC reader is instead one of those little square Verifone attachments. It read, then after enter zip code it failed and shows up in Android Pay as "Declined."
So is this a weird hardware issue or some kind of a software issue?
Feb 15, 2019, 9:32 am
#5664
Join Date: Oct 2014
Programs: Skymiles
Posts: 3,250
Home Depot is another one of those merchants who aren't huge fans of Visa/MC and will likely opt out of the merchant class action settlement. However, they did have contactless enabled pre-EMV (even if it didn't work all that well), so I'm not completely counting them out.
As for why, it really comes down to the same merchant vs. network fight that's been going on for decades. Only this time, they have a chance to potentially go away from the latter altogether. It's why they tried to make CurrentC a thing, and why some of the former members went out on their own after that failed. I really think that if Visa/MC offered some sort of reduction in interchange for contactless transactions, many of the remaining holdouts would enable it (depending on the amount, anyway; they might want to see levels close to the EU's 0.2-0.3% to even think about it).
Re: Chase Pay--are Kroger's current barcode scanners capable of QR scanning? I know that Best Buy uses the same ones they use to scan items to run Chase Pay, but for all I know they had them long before they signed up to accept it.
As for why, it really comes down to the same merchant vs. network fight that's been going on for decades. Only this time, they have a chance to potentially go away from the latter altogether. It's why they tried to make CurrentC a thing, and why some of the former members went out on their own after that failed. I really think that if Visa/MC offered some sort of reduction in interchange for contactless transactions, many of the remaining holdouts would enable it (depending on the amount, anyway; they might want to see levels close to the EU's 0.2-0.3% to even think about it).
Re: Chase Pay--are Kroger's current barcode scanners capable of QR scanning? I know that Best Buy uses the same ones they use to scan items to run Chase Pay, but for all I know they had them long before they signed up to accept it.
Feb 15, 2019, 9:46 am
#5665
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I do recall them having had a customer facing barcode scanner of some sort for a while. Perhaps they've been planning on this all along?
Feb 15, 2019, 10:30 am
#5666
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Just went to Vons and can confirm that AmEx in Google Pay still works. It did say "that didn't work" before giving me the checkmark but I attribute that to me being in a hurry. Still need to see if physical contactless AmEx works.
Feb 15, 2019, 11:41 am
#5667
Join Date: Oct 2014
Programs: Skymiles
Posts: 3,250
Also the good news is that Kroger Pay will support regular cards as well, not just ACH, with the possibility of accepting Apple Pay in-app.
Feb 15, 2019, 2:09 pm
#5668
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I'm not sure how that would work (or if it even saves time) if you have to authenticate with the phone's mobile wallet in addition to scanning the QR code. Not that Kroger would ever do it, of course.
Feb 15, 2019, 2:54 pm
#5669
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Anyway, my original point is that contactless can still make a significant dent in cash usage for small transactions (much like what happened in the UK). And since many merchants aren't huge fans of cards in general, I can see how there'd be an incentive for some not to enable it.
That shows you how weak contactless payments are here.
Feb 15, 2019, 3:05 pm
#5670
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The two cultures are different and can't be compared. Americans are too lazy to try anything new or anything considered "par" with the rest of the world. For the first time on Saturday, I saw someone use Apple Pay. What year did Apple Pay come out again?
That shows you how weak contactless payments are here.
That shows you how weak contactless payments are here.
On the other hand, that might cause people to kinda shrug at contactless cards since people got used to phones already. But that's okay, IMO.
