Jan 16, 2017, 6:55 am
Last edit by: storewanderer
Older (archived) threads: 2014-16
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- What is EMV contactless?
EMV contactless is a form of contactless/NFC that uses the same security and encryption that is used when inserting a chip card into an EMV-enabled terminal. Other than not having to sign/enter a PIN for smaller transactions, the security is effectively the same as chip and PIN/chip and signature.
In contrast, MSD contactless is an older version that is designed just and only for the United States. This effectively uses much the same flow as a swiped card transaction with the same rules.
- What is CDCVM?
CDCVM stands for Consumer Device Cardholder Verification Method. It's a method of telling the terminal that the customer verified their identity using their mobile device. Terminals that support it will waive the signature/PIN requirement typically in place for larger transactions, potentially saving time at checkout.
More info: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202527
- Does EMV contactless need to be supported to support CDCVM?
Typically, yes. (However, there are some exceptions below.)
- Why can't I tap my foreign-issued contactless card at most places in the US?
This is likely because the store does not support EMV contactless. Foreign issued contactless cards typically do not support MSD contactless since other markets have had EMV for quite some time. In contrast, most stores in the US have yet to get the necessary certifications/software for EMV contactless so they are typically MSD-only--if contactless is enabled at all. (See below for a list of stores where your card will likely work.)
- I paid for a purchase with Apple/Android/Samsung Pay and still had to sign for it.
Most likely, the store in question does not have EMV contactless enabled (see above question). However, there are instances where CDCVM does not work even with EMV contactless enabled. Restaurants that allow tip adjust, for example--where the tip amount is written on a paper receipt and entered by the staff later--cannot support CDCVM. It may simply be a matter of the merchant's processor or the POS software in use not supporting it too.
Another common reason is if you used a US-issued AmEx card with a mobile wallet. AmEx currently does not allow EMV contactless support in mobile wallets for these cards, so they always run as MSD contactless. Because of this, CDCVM is not supported (with very few exceptions, as noted below).
Note: if you used Samsung Pay, you may have paid with MST instead of NFC. Since MST emulates the magnetic pulses that the terminal receives when swiping a regular card, the normal magstripe rules apply.
- How can I tell whether EMV contactless was used?
An easy way to tell if you have Apple Pay is to pay with a Visa or MC while in airplane mode. Wallet will then show a transaction amount next to "Payment" for the card that was used. Alternatively, EMV-related information will typically print on the receipt (AID, etc.) if EMV contactless was used.
(Non-exhaustive) list of EMV contactless supporting merchants in the US:
- 7-Eleven
- 99 Ranch
- Albertsons (Safeway, Vons, Pak N Save, Jewel, Acme, Shaws, Star, Carrs, Randalls, Tom Thumb, Haggen, Eagle, Lucky UT/SoCal)
- Apple Store*†
- Athleta
- Auntie Anne’s Pretzels
- Banana Republic
- Costco Wholesale
- CVS
- DuaneReade*
- El Pollo Loco
- EG Group US (Quik Stop, Kwik Shop, Tom Thumb, Turkey Hill) Note: cashier must press "Electronic Payment" to activate NFC
- Five Below*
- Five Guys
- GAP
- Grocery Outlet*
- Harmon's Grocery
- H&M*
- Jolibee
- Kohl's*
- Lush Cosmetics*
- Maverik
- McDonald's*
- Meijer
- Old Navy
- Panera Bread
- PetSmart
- Ray's Food Place
- Round Table Pizza
- Royal Farms
- Red Ribbon Bakeshop
- Sheetz
- Sherm's Thunderbird Discount Markets Inc.*
- Sprouts
- Staples*
- Starbucks*
- Subway
- Walgreens*
- Weis Markets
- All businesses that use Square and support contactless*
- All businesses that use Clover and support EMV†**
- All businesses that use First Data standalone terminals (e.g. FD100+FD35, FD130) with EMV enabled**
* CDCVM support confirmed
** CDCVM support depends on store/restaurant
† CDCVM supported in MSD mode
USA contactless credit/debit/transit (2017 - 2021)
Apr 27, 2017, 11:15 am
#856
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Article is mostly about some money transfer service.
How often do people give money, either real or virtual, to other people?
Well sure people ask their friends and relatives to "lend" them money all the time but why would they want to facilitate that?
What's next, panhandlers going to hold out their smart phones so you can tap them some virtual cash?
Anyways, one of the reasons people mostly use credit cards are for rewards. Cash and debit cards don't give you rewards and they usually don't get you discounts for not using credit cards.
So what's the point?
How often do people give money, either real or virtual, to other people?
Well sure people ask their friends and relatives to "lend" them money all the time but why would they want to facilitate that?
What's next, panhandlers going to hold out their smart phones so you can tap them some virtual cash?
Anyways, one of the reasons people mostly use credit cards are for rewards. Cash and debit cards don't give you rewards and they usually don't get you discounts for not using credit cards.
So what's the point?
Anyway, I can see an Apple peer to peer payment thing getting traction, especially if it's hooked into iMessage. Google already has Google Wallet, for instance. Plus, if there's a prepaid debit card attached to Apple Wallet (or whatever it gets called), it might increase Apple Pay use at the same time; a lot of people don't actually care all that much about rewards and would give them up for the convenience of not having to wait the 2-5 business days to cash out.
Apr 27, 2017, 12:37 pm
#857
Join Date: Mar 2017
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It's solving a different issue. As everyone probably knows, ACH is a slow and painful way of transferring money--not to mention that a lot of banks and payees charge you for the privilege. Before stuff like Venmo came out, people would have to resort to using cash or checks to, say, split bills.
Anyway, I can see an Apple peer to peer payment thing getting traction, especially if it's hooked into iMessage. Google already has Google Wallet, for instance. Plus, if there's a prepaid debit card attached to Apple Wallet (or whatever it gets called), it might increase Apple Pay use at the same time; a lot of people don't actually care all that much about rewards and would give them up for the convenience of not having to wait the 2-5 business days to cash out.
Anyway, I can see an Apple peer to peer payment thing getting traction, especially if it's hooked into iMessage. Google already has Google Wallet, for instance. Plus, if there's a prepaid debit card attached to Apple Wallet (or whatever it gets called), it might increase Apple Pay use at the same time; a lot of people don't actually care all that much about rewards and would give them up for the convenience of not having to wait the 2-5 business days to cash out.
The feds have also come out with a plan to speed up ACH payments, scheduled to be completed in a couple of years.
I wouldn't say a lot of banks charge you for ACH... I would say crappy ones with high fees do, i.e: M&T Bank (crap) and Bank of America. This is the beauty of a (mostly) free market... You can bank with a credit union or another bank that doesn't charge for ACH transfers, or write a check to yourself. I find banks that charge for ACH transfers in the extreme minority.
Apr 27, 2017, 1:03 pm
#858
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Yeah I use ACH a lot but rarely with another individual.
It's all with banks, either transferring between accounts I have at different banks or paying my credit card balances with my checking accounts.
Never get charged for any of these ACH transactions and the transfers may lag a day or some institutions will hold for a couple of days before crediting the receiving account.
But if this Apple thing is looking to impose a transaction fee, why would people use it instead of ACH?
Most of the ACH transactions I do does not require instant transfers either.
That would be the only advantage of a digital cash system.
If I was going to give some money to someone, I'd hand them cash or write a check. I might bump my iPhone to their iPhone, if the transaction cost wasn't too onerous.
But this isn't a big use case, maybe happens a couple of times a year, unless I buy and sell a lot of stuff through Craigslist or something.
Now if they made this more widespread and we can use it on web transactions, I might be interested but like I said, for most purchases, I prefer credit cards, not just for the rewards but for buyer protections.
It's all with banks, either transferring between accounts I have at different banks or paying my credit card balances with my checking accounts.
Never get charged for any of these ACH transactions and the transfers may lag a day or some institutions will hold for a couple of days before crediting the receiving account.
But if this Apple thing is looking to impose a transaction fee, why would people use it instead of ACH?
Most of the ACH transactions I do does not require instant transfers either.
That would be the only advantage of a digital cash system.
If I was going to give some money to someone, I'd hand them cash or write a check. I might bump my iPhone to their iPhone, if the transaction cost wasn't too onerous.
But this isn't a big use case, maybe happens a couple of times a year, unless I buy and sell a lot of stuff through Craigslist or something.
Now if they made this more widespread and we can use it on web transactions, I might be interested but like I said, for most purchases, I prefer credit cards, not just for the rewards but for buyer protections.
Apr 27, 2017, 1:32 pm
#859
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Yeah I use ACH a lot but rarely with another individual.
It's all with banks, either transferring between accounts I have at different banks or paying my credit card balances with my checking accounts.
Never get charged for any of these ACH transactions and the transfers may lag a day or some institutions will hold for a couple of days before crediting the receiving account.
But if this Apple thing is looking to impose a transaction fee, why would people use it instead of ACH?
Most of the ACH transactions I do does not require instant transfers either.
That would be the only advantage of a digital cash system.
If I was going to give some money to someone, I'd hand them cash or write a check. I might bump my iPhone to their iPhone, if the transaction cost wasn't too onerous.
But this isn't a big use case, maybe happens a couple of times a year, unless I buy and sell a lot of stuff through Craigslist or something.
Now if they made this more widespread and we can use it on web transactions, I might be interested but like I said, for most purchases, I prefer credit cards, not just for the rewards but for buyer protections.
It's all with banks, either transferring between accounts I have at different banks or paying my credit card balances with my checking accounts.
Never get charged for any of these ACH transactions and the transfers may lag a day or some institutions will hold for a couple of days before crediting the receiving account.
But if this Apple thing is looking to impose a transaction fee, why would people use it instead of ACH?
Most of the ACH transactions I do does not require instant transfers either.
That would be the only advantage of a digital cash system.
If I was going to give some money to someone, I'd hand them cash or write a check. I might bump my iPhone to their iPhone, if the transaction cost wasn't too onerous.
But this isn't a big use case, maybe happens a couple of times a year, unless I buy and sell a lot of stuff through Craigslist or something.
Now if they made this more widespread and we can use it on web transactions, I might be interested but like I said, for most purchases, I prefer credit cards, not just for the rewards but for buyer protections.
Apr 27, 2017, 1:53 pm
#860
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
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BTW I've only seen AmEx take full advantage of this. Other issuers still seem to pull only once a day.
You mean won't, right?
Apr 27, 2017, 2:32 pm
#861
Join Date: Mar 2017
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By making the settlement happen 3x a day instead of once. That's not really much of an improvement considering that other countries have instant transfers. And on top of that, it's not exactly required for banks and other users of ACH to adopt the other settlement periods.
BTW I've only seen AmEx take full advantage of this. Other issuers still seem to pull only once a day.
You mean won't, right?
BTW I've only seen AmEx take full advantage of this. Other issuers still seem to pull only once a day.
You mean won't, right?
Why would you assume Apple won't charge for a money transfer service? Of course they will, this is Apple we're talking about here... They charge banks for Apple Pay, so of course the big greedy giant will charge people to transfer funds.
Apr 27, 2017, 2:34 pm
#862
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 266
I'm almost definitely sure using the physical contactless card results in faster transaction times than Apple Pay with AmEx now. Tried using Apple Pay at IKEA today and their FD130 took something like 5 seconds to start printing the receipt. (Haven't tried the physical card there yet.) Thoughts?
I haven't been since Oct/Nov and back then, I could only use Samsung Pay.
Apr 27, 2017, 3:25 pm
#863
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Actually they want to make sure your credits post by 5pm if submitted that morning by whoever is sending the money to you.
Why would you assume Apple won't charge for a money transfer service? Of course they will, this is Apple we're talking about here... They charge banks for Apple Pay, so of course the big greedy giant will charge people to transfer funds.
Why would you assume Apple won't charge for a money transfer service? Of course they will, this is Apple we're talking about here... They charge banks for Apple Pay, so of course the big greedy giant will charge people to transfer funds.
Also, why should they when their competitors are free? Besides, they'll get interchange from the attached debit card anyway.
Only the restaurant does. The main checkouts are still swipe-only.
Apr 27, 2017, 4:08 pm
#865
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,722
So it looks like some Love's now has Flex Pay IV with contactless at the pump will it work I wonder. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-YYKEAXYAAIOmg.jpg:large I haven't checked my local Love's but the last time I did it was still using old readers without contactless. Also inside was Amex only as Visa/MC declined, but they said they were working on supporting it inside. I just read that they hope to have it rolled out inside at some locations this summer.
But it sounds like they either updated the older ones to L5300's or moved away from the L5300's, hmmm I will have to go check it out soon.
Apr 27, 2017, 4:13 pm
#866
Join Date: Oct 2014
Programs: Skymiles
Posts: 3,251
So it looks like some Love's now has Flex Pay IV with contactless at the pump will it work I wonder. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-YYKEAXYAAIOmg.jpg:large I haven't checked my local Love's but the last time I did it was still using old readers without contactless. Also inside was Amex only as Visa/MC declined, but they said they were working on supporting it inside. I just read that they hope to have it rolled out inside at some locations this summer. https://twitter.com/LovesTravelStop/...23244937834496 But it sounds like they either updated the older ones to L5300's or moved away from the L5300's, hmmm I will have to go check it out soon.
Apr 27, 2017, 9:20 pm
#867
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Their competitors aren't free. Competitors charge for instant transfers... Examples: square instant deposit, Paypal exchanges with credit/debit cards, etc. Even Chase Quick Pay isn't instant unless you're transferring between two Chase accounts. PayPal charges 2.9% + a fixed fee.
Here's what Chase has to say about their "Quick Pay" service:
For payments accepted before the cutoff time from a Chase account to a non-Chase account, funds are typically available to the non-Chase account the next business day, though posting times are subject to the other bank's processing times.
For payments accepted before the cutoff time from a non-Chase account to a Chase account, funds are typically available to the Chase account on the fourth business day. (It typically takes one to two business days for us to receive the funds from the other bank and for funds to appear in your account. We then apply a hold to confirm the other bank has not rejected the transfer before the funds are made available to the Chase account.)
https://www.chase.com/psmhelp/index....ckPay_faq_main
For payments accepted before the cutoff time from a non-Chase account to a Chase account, funds are typically available to the Chase account on the fourth business day. (It typically takes one to two business days for us to receive the funds from the other bank and for funds to appear in your account. We then apply a hold to confirm the other bank has not rejected the transfer before the funds are made available to the Chase account.)
https://www.chase.com/psmhelp/index....ckPay_faq_main
Last edited by mikesyr18; Apr 27, 2017 at 9:31 pm
Apr 27, 2017, 10:22 pm
#868
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 197
I don't know if it was mentioned yet, but the Capital One Quicksilver is now issued contactless by default (as well as upside down, chip on the right)
Apr 27, 2017, 10:31 pm
#869
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Apr 27, 2017, 11:12 pm
#870
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Went to a new restaurant tonight that had a new-looking Apple Pay sticker on their window. I'm pretty sure they're using a FD130 though I didn't get a close enough look to be sure. Regular cards are still taken away and brought back so you'd have to go to the back to use a PIN preferring card or contactless. (Though the former may be a bit awkward because it seems that they're trained to try bypassing the PIN first for e.g. debit cards.)
None of the services you've mentioned are intended for P2P transfers. Square Cash, Venmo, etc. are free and are intended for that purpose.
FWIW, Square Cash and the other debit card based services are "instant" enough in that the transfer at least shows up as pending immediately and posts in ~1 day. YMMV.
Would they get the entire amount? Maybe not. They could easily negotiate some sort of revenue sharing if they wanted, though.
That sounds even more confusing than Citi Prestige, honestly.
Maybe not on the public website but for all we know, they're sending a slip of paper talking about it (like what AmEx does).
Their competitors aren't free. Competitors charge for instant transfers... Examples: square instant deposit, Paypal exchanges with credit/debit cards, etc. Even Chase Quick Pay isn't instant unless you're transferring between two Chase accounts. PayPal charges 2.9% + a fixed fee.
FWIW, Square Cash and the other debit card based services are "instant" enough in that the transfer at least shows up as pending immediately and posts in ~1 day. YMMV.
Apple is getting an interchange fee? No they're not, the card networks would be the only ones getting an interchange fee. I don't see Apple giving a freebie instant money transfer service to its customers. I don't see Apple bullying the banks to get a fee from them either, like they do with Apple Pay.
Maybe not on the public website but for all we know, they're sending a slip of paper talking about it (like what AmEx does).