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Foreign exchange rates discussion [FOREX]--all cards

Foreign exchange rates discussion [FOREX]--all cards

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Old Mar 14, 16, 10:00 am
  #256  
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Originally Posted by Phantom707 View Post
And I've already refuted your refutation.
No, you haven't refuted anything. You've stated something contrary to reported experiences, while providing evidence from one insignificant bank that I've never heard of before. (That bank appears to have rewards credit cards which aren't related to any frequent flyer miles or hotel points and is therefore basically irrelevant to FT anyhow.)

Originally Posted by Phantom707 View Post
There are multiple data points from other people that show a significant fee that matches with the ~1% fee.
Please provide references. (Regarding a bank that someone gives a .... about.)

Originally Posted by Phantom707 View Post
As I've said before, yes, you may not have experienced it, but other people apparently definitely have.
"apparently definitely"! That pretty much covers it.

I started this thread to investigate and share actual data, having observed differences in the effective exchange rates of no-FTF credit cards from Chase. It has grown to include discussion of other card companies. I have no idea why you would want to derail it with what you admitted in your original post was baseless conjecture:

Originally Posted by Phantom707 View Post
At least that's my explanation since it seems to make the most sense to me. I have not looked at the numbers in a while to verify this.
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Old Mar 14, 16, 11:23 am
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Originally Posted by Kremmen View Post
No, you haven't refuted anything. You've stated something contrary to reported experiences, while providing evidence from one insignificant bank that I've never heard of before. (That bank appears to have rewards credit cards which aren't related to any frequent flyer miles or hotel points and is therefore basically irrelevant to FT anyhow.)


Please provide references. (Regarding a bank that someone gives a .... about.)


"apparently definitely"! That pretty much covers it.

I started this thread to investigate and share actual data, having observed differences in the effective exchange rates of no-FTF credit cards from Chase. It has grown to include discussion of other card companies. I have no idea why you would want to derail it with what you admitted in your original post was baseless conjecture:
xxxxx

In my previous post, I was replying to patrick.barnes based on a previous conversation that we had. Then you jump in and say that I haven't refuted anything without even reading that previous conversation. You really don't understand.

First, I specifically said that the link I provided to Radius Bank's website was an explanation. I said clearest explanation. Then I specifically talked about how other banks, such as Barclay, are reported to do this as well.

That means that it's not just about this small bank that no one cares about. I was referring to the small bank's document to illustrate a point because no other bank talked about it.

Second, I have provided references. IN THIS THREAD.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25855901-post135.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25881656-post140.html

Next, you criticize how I mention "apparently definitely". Sorry for not making absolutely, unequivocal, one million percent certain statements. Sorry that I'm open to more data (which I did provide). Sorry that you didn't even look at the data that I provided in your own thread.

I'm admitting that even with these data points (that I had already provided), I might still be wrong. Are you criticizing me for not having absolutely all information and the precise answer to your question?

Am I supposed to continually reference everything I say in absolutely every single comment that I make? Do you want me to provide a dictionary definition of every single word that I use?

I've already given sources. xxxx

Last edited by philemer; Mar 15, 16 at 9:38 am Reason: removed personal comment
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Old Mar 14, 16, 11:43 am
  #258  
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Old Mar 14, 16, 6:54 pm
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All said, I am still quite confident, with my data and others', that A+ or MC in general doesn't charge the 1.1% mentioned by some posts here.

My take is that without concrete evidence, this phantom 1.1% fee can mislead people.

We need to have a concrete conclusion, no matter it's a aye or a nay.
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Old Mar 14, 16, 6:57 pm
  #260  
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I thought the major issuers agreed as part of a class action suit to list out charges like that supposed 1.1% from MC separately. Wouldn't that be a pretty significant violation if they were including it into forex rates without mentioning it to anyone? I'd think they wouldn't want to take the risk of judicial sanctions from not following the letter of the agreement.
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Old Mar 14, 16, 7:26 pm
  #261  
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
I thought the major issuers agreed as part of a class action suit to list out charges ...
Previous discussion:

2009: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...l-court-2.html

I am confident there was an earlier discussion, but I have not yet located the thread. The named issuers did agree to disclose foreign transaction or currency fees. I don't think Barclays was one of the defendants, but they would surely be aware of it.

If I thought i had good evidence that a major issuer was collecting an undisclosed fee I would contact one of the firms that handled the original litigation.
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Old Mar 14, 16, 10:45 pm
  #262  
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Originally Posted by Phantom707 View Post
I've already given sources. You didn't bother to read them.
Your original comments were about single card, Barclay Arrival+.

You have recently leapt to extrapolating that "MasterCard charges the 1.1% fee (which is really a 0.9% fee and a 0.2% fee)". The implication is that you mean that this is true across all banks, which it clearly isn't.
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Old Mar 15, 16, 8:49 am
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Originally Posted by Kremmen View Post
Your original comments were about single card, Barclay Arrival+.

You have recently leapt to extrapolating that "MasterCard charges the 1.1% fee (which is really a 0.9% fee and a 0.2% fee)".
I mean, if that is the case, MC needs to provide us with rates more than 1.1% better, because usually I see the best actual rates (foreign amount / posted USD amount) on MC when compared directly with Visa and Amex on the same day in the same country.

That's my observation, but I think my observations are quite concrete.
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Old Mar 15, 16, 8:54 am
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My credit union's (HFCU, US Air Force) Visa charges a 1.1% currency conversion fee. It's not disclosed on my account, but when I called in, I was told that it exists and is charged by Visa, not the credit union. Not sure if it's related, just adding a data point. If you have a card that doesn't charge this fee, your card issuer might be eating that 1.1%

Last edited by diburning; Mar 15, 16 at 10:49 pm
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Old Mar 15, 16, 8:17 pm
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Data point for Chase Hyatt Visa in Singapore. My stay at the GH was 1031.02 SGD on 3/12 and showed up on my account as $752.82 USD (it didn't "run" until 3/13 and didn't "post" until 3/14).

Can't even figure out what exchange rate they used. The highest rate between 3/12 and 3/14 was .7889 and even that rate comes in at $751.50 which is $1.32 less than what I was ultimately charged.

In fact even using the highest exchange week for the last week (.7295) which occurred on March 11th does not quite get to the figure I was charged (only gets to $752.129). I may need to follow-up on this otherwise I may abandon Visa for future travel - that's just ridiculous. It comes out to 1 USD = 1.3695 SGD.

Looking at my other transactions from the days before it looks like my CSP used a 1.3695 rate as well which looking at the FX chart I can't even find evidence that it hit that during the time I was there (the lowest it hit was 1.3708).

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?fr...to=USD&view=1W

On the same day I used my AMEX PRG for an Uber and Citi Premier for a plane ticket:

AMEX PRG was: 22.76 SGD and posted as $16.52 (1.3777 SGD to USD)
Citi Premier was: 556.76 SGD and posted as $404.18 (1.3775 SGD to USD)

So in all AMEX actually won but in all cases Chase Visa came in with the worst by far. At least AMEX and Citi were speaking the same language.

This might push me to remove Chase cards from consideration when traveling (I've just sent them a PM for clarification) since it appears they aren't even using an active market rate but using something that didn't even occur on the market during the time in question.

I've also noticed that while AMEX and Citi both display the foreign currency amount within the actual charge, Chase does not which means fishing out receipts to check the rate.

Last edited by Duke787; Mar 15, 16 at 8:32 pm
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Old Mar 16, 16, 5:43 am
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Originally Posted by Duke787 View Post
Data point for Chase Hyatt Visa in Singapore. My stay at the GH was 1031.02 SGD on 3/12 and showed up on my account as $752.82 USD (it didn't "run" until 3/13 and didn't "post" until 3/14).

Can't even figure out what exchange rate they used. The highest rate between 3/12 and 3/14 was .7889 and even that rate comes in at $751.50 which is $1.32 less than what I was ultimately charged.
That's the Visa rate for the settlement date. https://usa.visa.com/support/consume...lculator.html/ It's not clear what sources Visa uses.

MC hasn't updated their site this month, https://www.mastercard.com/global/currencyconversion/ but you could compare earlier dates if you're interested.

Amex doesn't seem to have a similar publicly available site.
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Old Mar 16, 16, 7:26 am
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Originally Posted by Duke787 View Post
Hmmm using that it claims Visa rate should've been ~1.382 on a no FTF card (which I used) for 3/12-3/14
Originally Posted by mia View Post
I don't see this. The site shows the same rate for all three days:

1 SGD = 0.730174 USD

1031.02 x .730174 = $752.82 which is exactly what appeared on your statement.
Ah I see that now - I had it flipped (with SGD listed first and USD listed second).

Interesting - well that explains where Chase got it from but certainly would be curious where Visa is pulling this rate from.

Nonetheless at least in Singapore, Visa seems to be charging premium on the XE compared to MC and AMEX
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Old Mar 16, 16, 7:35 am
  #268  
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Originally Posted by Duke787 View Post
Visa seems to be charging premium on the XE compared to MC and AMEX
American Express shows a different exchange rate on the 14th than over the weekend (12/13). The weekend rate is that same as Friday (11):

11th, 12th or 13th: 1031.02 = $748.74
14th: 1031.02 = $753.12
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Old Mar 17, 16, 3:07 pm
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Originally Posted by Phantom707 View Post
And I've already refuted your refutation. There are multiple data points from other people that show a significant fee that matches with the ~1% fee.

As I've said before, yes, you may not have experienced it, but other people apparently definitely have.
My *actual spending* on this card refutes your "1.1% of hidden fees" statement of fact. You've pointed to *2* "data points" which are by people who don't understand transaction vs post dates. zyxlsy and I have posted *many* data points with real data that indicates no such hidden fee exists.

So: there are no such fees on my transactions and others in this thread, there are some data points which indicate there may have been a fee. I've never seen this fee in ~2 years of using the A+. So the blanket statements are wrong.

Not sure what we're arguing at this point, TBH.

Last edited by patrick.barnes; Mar 17, 16 at 3:17 pm
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Old Mar 17, 16, 10:26 pm
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Originally Posted by patrick.barnes View Post
My *actual spending* on this card refutes your "1.1% of hidden fees" statement of fact. You've pointed to *2* "data points" which are by people who don't understand transaction vs post dates. zyxlsy and I have posted *many* data points with real data that indicates no such hidden fee exists.

So: there are no such fees on my transactions and others in this thread, there are some data points which indicate there may have been a fee. I've never seen this fee in ~2 years of using the A+. So the blanket statements are wrong.

Not sure what we're arguing at this point, TBH.
Because almost all of the legal documentation has this explanation. A quick search of the terms "MasterCard 0.9% cross border 0.2% currency conversion" (without the quotations) reveals a lot of information about it.

Financial institutions that pass on this fee:

https://services.greatsouthernbank.c...20schedule.pdf
https://www.iucu.org/rates/fees.html
https://www.logixbanking.com/~/media...Disclosure.pdf (page 2)
http://www.tdfcu.org/home/consumerinformation/fee
https://www.bellbanks.com/News/Bell/Travel-Tips

I could go on, but I think that suffices to prove the point that it's in the legal documents of a lot of places. Importantly, it's for MasterCard specifically, not Visa.

Then there are these articles about MasterCard's known practice in doing this.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspe.../#1cd3ad7b5b5a
http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspe.../#54604b671004
http://www.trefis.com/stock/ma/artic...tes/2013-01-29

And then people have called in to various other institutions (such as Barclay) and have been told that there is a 1.0 or 1.1% fee charged regardless of what the bank advertises as being free of foreign transaction fees.

So we start with a single premise, that the legal documents (and phone calls) suggest there is a fee. That leads to some possibilities:

1. The legal documents and phone calls say there's a fee, and that fee is charged.

2. The legal documents and phone calls say there's a fee, and that fee is not charged.

3. The legal documents and phone calls say there's a fee, and that fee is charged, but there are other factors that make detection of that fee difficult.

4. The legal documents and phone calls apply to only some institutions and not the ones that you're talking about.

You take the position of option 4. However, as reported by at least some others, the phone calls were made directly to Barclay, and the callers were told specifically that there was a fee passed on. You may also say that those generalized documents about MasterCard as a whole are out of date and/or not applicable to Barclay.

That is why I don't think that option 4 is correct, at least in the case of Barclay. Yes, those representatives may have been wrong, but it seems unlikely given the specificity of both question and answer. Communication cannot work unless you actually believe most of what people say.

So that could mean that it's option 2, that in the case of Barclay, the phone calls were stated correctly, but that fee is not enforced.

Importantly, option 2 is potentially indistinguishable from option 3, the one that I have proposed. To the end consumer, there would be no discernible difference if Barclay didn't charge the fee and if Barclay did charge the fee, but there were other factors that mitigated the effects of that fee.

You might then object by saying that if they're indistinguishable, then you are right, that there is no reason to be having this discussion. However, it may not be true that they're indistinguishable in all cases.

So yes, you have provided a number of data points. I am not denying that.

However, that is not to say that you have provided all data points. Nor do I expect you to because that would be completely unrealistic.

If more people provide more data points, we would be able to see if there are any discrepancies such as I have already pointed out. If all of the data points support your conclusion, then by Occam's Razor, we would just go with the belief that the fee isn't charged since that removes unnecessary and unverifiable variables.

However, that's the point of why I brought it up in the first place, in order to bring attention to a very specific issue that otherwise would be swept under and ignored.

That ignoring of the issue is especially salient and prevalent in this thread where you have insisted that because you have provided some data points, that means it's impossible for there to be inconsistent data points.

Again, I'm not derogating the data that you have provided, but I am saying that the stance that you have taken has actively and consciously made it difficult for other data to shed further light upon this situation because you have said that you "already refuted" my position.

That actively discourages anyone from bringing in contrary data points, especially when those data points would be singular. In this situation, once someone presents their singular data point, they would be told that that has already been refuted, that they don't know the difference between transaction date and settlement date, and that would discourage anyone else from bringing in any other singular data points.

But that's the problem. In isolation, those would all be singular data points, but they could mean more if brought together. They could present a case that shows despite any validity of your own data, there is also validity in their data, that in some circumstances, there would be a fee charged.

So that is why we're having this discussion. That is why we are arguing.
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