Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
May 29, 2014, 10:23 pm
#406
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,800
DCC in the Maldives
We went to a total of three resorts.
The first two hotels have crappy billing systems. Angsana Ihuru presented a very confusing bill and only after leaving did I realise they overcharged me for board. Banyan Tree Vabbinfuru charged me for individual meals as well as board at the same time and I had to spend 20 minutes with them arguing they had to be taken out.
But no DCC problems - their card terminals are fine. They used a local bank. The amounts were posted correctly in USD (their native currency) on my Citi HK online banking.
As I checked into the third resort, the Taj Exotica, I noticed they had a Global Payments card terminal. I thought I will be shafted at checkout.
The stay was good enough for me to forget the thought. We weren't given late checkout on last day but my flight was at 22:35, but we played so much we barely had 15 minutes to checkout before the 20:00 boat transfer to airport.
The bill was correct for once. I handed my card, saying very distinctively and slowly "charge U-S dollars please"
The cashier handed me a slip to sign. I frowned.
"You selected USD right?"
"Yes sir"
I ticked the box, signed and photoed the hell out of it and signed. I was further worried when the cashier gave me a cardholder receipt with two unticked boxes.
"Are you sure this is USD?"
"Yes sir, if you want HKD, I have to press a button after."
She even offered me her name for the record and I sat down. I was not comfortable at all (given Citibank has a HK$2/mile promo for non-HKD spending but denies all points and passes on 0.8% FTF for DCC, not to mention the 2.4% scalp Global Payments is trying to rob). I couldn't help calling HK and asking how much credit was held. To my horror it was HK$12,409.42 (a USD charge should be held at the HKD-USD currency peg rate of 7.76 x USD amount or approx $11,886.23, with the amount being grossed up by 1.95% FCF when posted)
I stormed back to the desk and asked to void. She said she will fix it in the "back office" a bit later. When I said there is no such thing she went to the back office and grabbed her supervisor. Then she sent someone to stop the boat that's meant to take us away.
The supervisor voided the slip, which showed Global Payments indeed had went ahead and charged me in HKD.
He proceeded to charge me a second time. I adopted the Global Payment stomach over counter posture again. I saw the following:
1. Supervisor keys in amount
2. Cardholder receipt printed
3. Card terminal prompts "Print next receipt?" --> Supervisor presses no (presumably his junior pressed yes here)
4. USD and HKD choices offered. He selects USD.
5. USD selected and cardholder receipt printed (confusingly, identical to DCCed transaction above)
He also prints off the "Merchant Courtesy Copy", which shows USD only.
I decided to sign (I had a USD card but that practically earned no miles), photo (had to use my missus's iPhone as my own decided to hang at this point) and we run off to the boat. I had kept two other couples waiting.
I was feeling pretty good until my flight landed in HK - I flipped on my phone and got connected to Citi before my flight reached its parking bay. Dammit, HK$12,409.42 is being held again.
Maybe the terminal holds credit at DCC rate and posts according to cardholder selection (not yet), but I've had Citi send me a dispute form (getting Citi's fax server to fax you a form takes half a day...) cos I don't have a good feeling about this.
Even if the terminal eventually posts correctly, Global Payments deserves a large sharp piece of coral shoved up its anus for this. By default, the terminal will DCC unless you answer the illogical answer ("No") to a deceptively worded question ("Print next receipt?").
I think the staff's reaction was reasonable but Taj Exotica deserves to be named and shamed for signing up for DCC (and a non-compliant one at that).
The first two hotels have crappy billing systems. Angsana Ihuru presented a very confusing bill and only after leaving did I realise they overcharged me for board. Banyan Tree Vabbinfuru charged me for individual meals as well as board at the same time and I had to spend 20 minutes with them arguing they had to be taken out.
But no DCC problems - their card terminals are fine. They used a local bank. The amounts were posted correctly in USD (their native currency) on my Citi HK online banking.
As I checked into the third resort, the Taj Exotica, I noticed they had a Global Payments card terminal. I thought I will be shafted at checkout.
The stay was good enough for me to forget the thought. We weren't given late checkout on last day but my flight was at 22:35, but we played so much we barely had 15 minutes to checkout before the 20:00 boat transfer to airport.
The bill was correct for once. I handed my card, saying very distinctively and slowly "charge U-S dollars please"
The cashier handed me a slip to sign. I frowned.
"You selected USD right?"
"Yes sir"
I ticked the box, signed and photoed the hell out of it and signed. I was further worried when the cashier gave me a cardholder receipt with two unticked boxes.
"Are you sure this is USD?"
"Yes sir, if you want HKD, I have to press a button after."
She even offered me her name for the record and I sat down. I was not comfortable at all (given Citibank has a HK$2/mile promo for non-HKD spending but denies all points and passes on 0.8% FTF for DCC, not to mention the 2.4% scalp Global Payments is trying to rob). I couldn't help calling HK and asking how much credit was held. To my horror it was HK$12,409.42 (a USD charge should be held at the HKD-USD currency peg rate of 7.76 x USD amount or approx $11,886.23, with the amount being grossed up by 1.95% FCF when posted)
I stormed back to the desk and asked to void. She said she will fix it in the "back office" a bit later. When I said there is no such thing she went to the back office and grabbed her supervisor. Then she sent someone to stop the boat that's meant to take us away.
The supervisor voided the slip, which showed Global Payments indeed had went ahead and charged me in HKD.
He proceeded to charge me a second time. I adopted the Global Payment stomach over counter posture again. I saw the following:
1. Supervisor keys in amount
2. Cardholder receipt printed
3. Card terminal prompts "Print next receipt?" --> Supervisor presses no (presumably his junior pressed yes here)
4. USD and HKD choices offered. He selects USD.
5. USD selected and cardholder receipt printed (confusingly, identical to DCCed transaction above)
He also prints off the "Merchant Courtesy Copy", which shows USD only.
I decided to sign (I had a USD card but that practically earned no miles), photo (had to use my missus's iPhone as my own decided to hang at this point) and we run off to the boat. I had kept two other couples waiting.
I was feeling pretty good until my flight landed in HK - I flipped on my phone and got connected to Citi before my flight reached its parking bay. Dammit, HK$12,409.42 is being held again.
Maybe the terminal holds credit at DCC rate and posts according to cardholder selection (not yet), but I've had Citi send me a dispute form (getting Citi's fax server to fax you a form takes half a day...) cos I don't have a good feeling about this.
Even if the terminal eventually posts correctly, Global Payments deserves a large sharp piece of coral shoved up its anus for this. By default, the terminal will DCC unless you answer the illogical answer ("No") to a deceptively worded question ("Print next receipt?").
I think the staff's reaction was reasonable but Taj Exotica deserves to be named and shamed for signing up for DCC (and a non-compliant one at that).
Last edited by percysmith; May 31, 2014 at 8:43 pm
May 30, 2014, 2:55 am
#407
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
We went to a total of three resorts.
I was feeling pretty good until my flight landed in HK - I flipped on my phone and got connected to Citi before my flight reached its parking bay. Dammit, HK$12,409.42 is being held again.
Maybe the terminal holds credit at DCC rate and posts according to cardholder selection (not yet), but I've had Citi send me a dispute form (getting Citi's fax server to fax you a form takes half a day...) cos I don't have a good feeling about this.
Even if the terminal eventually posts correctly, Global Payments deserves a large sharp piece of coral shoved up its anus for this. By default, the terminal will DCC unless you answer the illogical answer ("No") to a deceptively worded question ("Print next receipt?").
I was feeling pretty good until my flight landed in HK - I flipped on my phone and got connected to Citi before my flight reached its parking bay. Dammit, HK$12,409.42 is being held again.
Maybe the terminal holds credit at DCC rate and posts according to cardholder selection (not yet), but I've had Citi send me a dispute form (getting Citi's fax server to fax you a form takes half a day...) cos I don't have a good feeling about this.
Even if the terminal eventually posts correctly, Global Payments deserves a large sharp piece of coral shoved up its anus for this. By default, the terminal will DCC unless you answer the illogical answer ("No") to a deceptively worded question ("Print next receipt?").
There are lots of DCC POS machines that use very deceptively weird ways to trick people.
BTW, I got my American Express Platinum. Now if I go to some war zones, I will just use this to shut those greedy transaction handlers (like this Global Payment sxxt) up.
May 30, 2014, 6:46 am
#408
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,060
"You selected USD right?"
"Yes sir"
I ticked the box, signed and photoed the hell out of it and signed. I was further worried when the cashier gave me a cardholder receipt with two unticked boxes.
"Are you sure this is USD?"
"Yes sir, if you want HKD, I have to press a button after."
<snip>
I stormed back to the desk and asked to void. She said she will fix it in the "back office" a bit later. When I said there is no such thing she went to the back office and grabbed her supervisor. Then she sent someone to stop the boat that's meant to take us away.
The supervisor voided the slip, which showed Global Payments indeed had went ahead and charged me in HKD.
He proceeded to charge me a second time. I adopted the Global Payment stomach over counter posture again. I saw the following:
1. Supervisor keys in amount
2. Cardholder receipt printed
3. Card terminal prompts "Print next receipt?" --> Supervisor presses no (presumably his junior pressed yes here)
4. USD and HKD choices offered. He selects USD.
He also prints off the "Merchant Courtesy Copy", which shows USD only.
<snip>
By default, the terminal will DCC unless you answer the illogical answer ("No") to a deceptively worded question ("Print next receipt?").
May 30, 2014, 10:53 am
#409
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Discover Card actually warns travelers about the DCC scam
https://www.discover.com/credit-card...d-abroad.shtml
Look at that, a credit card company actually warning customers about DCC, unlike VISA and MC. Maybe for int'l travel, we can start using Discover cards instead through their Diners Club-JCB-Union Pay agreements.
https://www.discover.com/credit-card...d-abroad.shtml
Originally Posted by Discover
Dynamic currency conversion
Be wary of dynamic currency conversion when using your card to shop overseas. Many merchants will offer the ability to charge your purchase in dollars rather than the local currency. It sounds appealing, but doing so can result in hefty conversion fees, in some instances up to 6 percent. Some consumers may think that dynamic currency conversion will help them avoid a foreign transaction fee, but that’s simply not the case. Credit card companies will generally charge the foreign transaction fee in addition to the charge made from dynamic currency conversion.
Be wary of dynamic currency conversion when using your card to shop overseas. Many merchants will offer the ability to charge your purchase in dollars rather than the local currency. It sounds appealing, but doing so can result in hefty conversion fees, in some instances up to 6 percent. Some consumers may think that dynamic currency conversion will help them avoid a foreign transaction fee, but that’s simply not the case. Credit card companies will generally charge the foreign transaction fee in addition to the charge made from dynamic currency conversion.
May 30, 2014, 11:37 am
#410
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
I'll have to watch out for this. The fact the manager was able to produce a merchant copy of the receipt with a USD amount would put me at ease somewhat, but it's unfortunate we have to be hypervigilant and willing to fight at every step of the way. Using AmEx isn't always an option, and I imagine it's only a matter of time before AmEx jumps on the DCC scam too.
May 30, 2014, 12:36 pm
#411
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
I say we go with the plan of writing letters to banks to create an "always decline DCC" option on our bank servers side.
1. Go online to credit card account
2. Tick option to always decline DCC
3. Will always decline DCC abroad no matter what happens abroad
Who says the terminal should let make decisions for us without our input? If the banks abroad wants to play the "always set to DCC mode with no way around it" game with their terminals, we should have an equal playing field to have the consumer option to "always set to no DCC with no way around it" on our own accounts.
1. Go online to credit card account
2. Tick option to always decline DCC
3. Will always decline DCC abroad no matter what happens abroad
Who says the terminal should let make decisions for us without our input? If the banks abroad wants to play the "always set to DCC mode with no way around it" game with their terminals, we should have an equal playing field to have the consumer option to "always set to no DCC with no way around it" on our own accounts.
May 30, 2014, 12:37 pm
#412
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,800
And get more merchants accepting Visas even if they scam cardholders...
May 30, 2014, 1:09 pm
#413
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
I'm not totally convinced Visa really wants that, I think they turn a blind eye to it because so few cardholders complain or even care. I think if they felt it was creating a bad cardholder experience, they would quickly start enforcing the rules, thus why complaining to Visa is so important.
May 30, 2014, 2:11 pm
#414
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
I'm not totally convinced Visa really wants that, I think they turn a blind eye to it because so few cardholders complain or even care. I think if they felt it was creating a bad cardholder experience, they would quickly start enforcing the rules, thus why complaining to Visa is so important.
So one way of looking at this is maybe Americans and Japanese hate it, but Canadians and Europeans love it (as an example). If that's the case, what would VISA do?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that whether people like DCC or not, has to be reflective of a very large pool size as there are VISA cardholders all over the world.
Last edited by kebosabi; May 30, 2014 at 2:20 pm
May 30, 2014, 2:21 pm
#415
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
I don't think there is any legitimate basis for a competition lawsuit. Amex doesn't allow DCC and they haven't been sued yet.
May 30, 2014, 2:28 pm
#416
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
Not at all, they allow DCC to help their merchants make more money. This helps them attract merchants and justifies charging them higher swipe fees because they can recover some of it through DCC.
I don't think there is any legitimate basis for a competition lawsuit. Amex doesn't allow DCC and they haven't been sued yet.
I don't think there is any legitimate basis for a competition lawsuit. Amex doesn't allow DCC and they haven't been sued yet.
You may claim there is no grounds for a lawsuit, but Australia's consumer protection (or in this case, merchant protection) group has ALREADY sued Visa over not allowing Dynamic Currency Conversion - https://www.accc.gov.au/media-releas...ainst-visa-inc
THIS is why Visa and Mastercard allow the practice, they're heavily regulated in most of the world. Discover/Diner's and Amex are not since they're not seen to be able to control the market in the same way. This is also why Visa/MC interchange is heavily regulated and Amex isn't.
May 30, 2014, 6:22 pm
#417
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,031
Worldwide, Amex doesn't face the same regulation because they aren't considered to have undue influence on the market. If a merchant doesn't take Amex, it's not going to cost them much, if any, business. If a merchant doesn't take Visa or Mastercard, that will hurt their business. Thus, they face stricter regulation.
You may claim there is no grounds for a lawsuit, but Australia's consumer protection (or in this case, merchant protection) group has ALREADY sued Visa over not allowing Dynamic Currency Conversion - https://www.accc.gov.au/media-releas...ainst-visa-inc
THIS is why Visa and Mastercard allow the practice, they're heavily regulated in most of the world. Discover/Diner's and Amex are not since they're not seen to be able to control the market in the same way. This is also why Visa/MC interchange is heavily regulated and Amex isn't.
You may claim there is no grounds for a lawsuit, but Australia's consumer protection (or in this case, merchant protection) group has ALREADY sued Visa over not allowing Dynamic Currency Conversion - https://www.accc.gov.au/media-releas...ainst-visa-inc
THIS is why Visa and Mastercard allow the practice, they're heavily regulated in most of the world. Discover/Diner's and Amex are not since they're not seen to be able to control the market in the same way. This is also why Visa/MC interchange is heavily regulated and Amex isn't.
What do you think the original rationale for DCC was? Customer convenience? Or, to make Visa/MC more attractive to merchants?
May 30, 2014, 6:37 pm
#418
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
I don't know if this is the whole story but dcc began in Ireland by Irish merchants who basically opened up credit card accounts in different countries. So a merchant would have a credit card account with a bank that processed charges in US dollars, another that processed charges in sterling and a third that processed charges in Irish punts. The conversions were done manually and the charge slips processed through the appropriate bank (remember electronic processing of credit transactions was a relatively late comer to the scene).
As technology evolved and electronic processing of credit card operatons took hold in the 90's, acquirers began processing things electronically and essentially worked out methods of having the charges submitted by the merchants electronically bypass the international visa and/or mc networks and enter the system at a point where the currency the charge was written in was the local currency. All this could be accomplished electronically. It was there that dcc began taking off, spreading outside Ireland and in essence dcc as we know it today was born. Perhaps one of the reasons it has never spread to Amex is acquirers could not work out an entry point for converted charges with Amex which is sort of a closed network. Note I said perhaps.
Of course indeed in Australia a law suit was filed against mc/visa for trying to stop merchants and acquirers from using dcc. But no such lawsuit has been filed agaiint Amex so we have what we have today where acquirers and merchants by the use of dcc are able to get a piece of the currency action depriving mc and visa and the banks in other country the ability to play the great currency game. So what did mc/visa and the banks do? Why they put fees on all foreign transactions as opposed to foreign currency exchange transactions. So the dcc acquirers blame visa/mc telling customers they were prepared to offer good rates oand provide the convenience of knowing just how much an item cost in a currency the consumer could understand and for business people making their job of submitting expense reports easier but it was the big bad networks and banks that were ripping off the customers not them who were trying to provide a valuable service to both merchans and consumers. Of course we know who was lying, don't we?
As technology evolved and electronic processing of credit card operatons took hold in the 90's, acquirers began processing things electronically and essentially worked out methods of having the charges submitted by the merchants electronically bypass the international visa and/or mc networks and enter the system at a point where the currency the charge was written in was the local currency. All this could be accomplished electronically. It was there that dcc began taking off, spreading outside Ireland and in essence dcc as we know it today was born. Perhaps one of the reasons it has never spread to Amex is acquirers could not work out an entry point for converted charges with Amex which is sort of a closed network. Note I said perhaps.
Of course indeed in Australia a law suit was filed against mc/visa for trying to stop merchants and acquirers from using dcc. But no such lawsuit has been filed agaiint Amex so we have what we have today where acquirers and merchants by the use of dcc are able to get a piece of the currency action depriving mc and visa and the banks in other country the ability to play the great currency game. So what did mc/visa and the banks do? Why they put fees on all foreign transactions as opposed to foreign currency exchange transactions. So the dcc acquirers blame visa/mc telling customers they were prepared to offer good rates oand provide the convenience of knowing just how much an item cost in a currency the consumer could understand and for business people making their job of submitting expense reports easier but it was the big bad networks and banks that were ripping off the customers not them who were trying to provide a valuable service to both merchans and consumers. Of course we know who was lying, don't we?
May 30, 2014, 8:04 pm
#419
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,060
You may claim there is no grounds for a lawsuit, but Australia's consumer protection (or in this case, merchant protection) group has ALREADY sued Visa over not allowing Dynamic Currency Conversion - https://www.accc.gov.au/media-releas...ainst-visa-inc
May 30, 2014, 9:02 pm
#420
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
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