Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Feb 22, 2015, 6:26 pm
#1726
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,059
But it shows only for 2 seconds, and there are no YES and NO buttons on the machine. All you have to do is press CANCEL at this screen.
So, is this POS compliant? Yes, it shows the rate, and "asks" for a input. However, it will choose for you in only 2 seconds, and its slip clearly contradict the fact that the POS cannot do a currency selection afterwards. Is this contradiction alone enough for a international lawsuit?
Also, probably the POS can select currency afterwards, but no one knows how to.
Feb 22, 2015, 10:44 pm
#1727
Join Date: May 2006
Location: PMD
Programs: UA*G, NW, AA-G. WR-P, HH-G, IHG-S, ALL. TT-GE.
Posts: 2,910
In this thread where AA canceled and endorsed pax to the last flight of the day on UA, and pax were IDB'd and left for "dead" at 1 am mainly due to UA's system's fault, there is a sentiment that AA is ultimately responsible for UA's failure, since they created the situation for which they don't have a reliable way to resolve.
Now here, shouldn't any lawsuit directed toward Visa/MC in Europe or the US? China's failure to comply is VI/MC's responsibility. Since DCC came out of some lawsuits and regulator's actions, another lawsuit would give VI/MC a way out, e.g. ban China (or any country they deem non-compatible) from DCC.
Now here, shouldn't any lawsuit directed toward Visa/MC in Europe or the US? China's failure to comply is VI/MC's responsibility. Since DCC came out of some lawsuits and regulator's actions, another lawsuit would give VI/MC a way out, e.g. ban China (or any country they deem non-compatible) from DCC.
Feb 23, 2015, 6:35 pm
#1728
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
Now here, shouldn't any lawsuit directed toward Visa/MC in Europe or the US? China's failure to comply is VI/MC's responsibility. Since DCC came out of some lawsuits and regulator's actions, another lawsuit would give VI/MC a way out, e.g. ban China (or any country they deem non-compatible) from DCC.
And by some other people's suggest, not allowing DCC from Visa/MC would be against the law as well...
Feb 23, 2015, 7:36 pm
#1729
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,799
zyxlsy - you do realise you can't sue BoC in a US court for DCC in China and suing BoC in a People's Court in China may result in yourself being locked up for 寻人滋事?
Feb 23, 2015, 10:58 pm
#1730
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
That's why I am interested to know whether people can sue BoC in some international courts or places handling international commerce disputes, because it is not strictly confined in China anymore. It's BoC breaking Visa/MC rule and stealing money from foreigner consumers.
Mar 1, 2015, 9:58 pm
#1731
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,059
My sister-in-law flew back to Sydney on Tuesday. As a parting gift, she had tabulated all of the receipts for her US purchases in AUD and left them on my desk for when we got back from taking her to the airport.
tl;dr version - we didn't see DCC beyond Forever 21 and Kate Spade, both of which made the DCC offer on the electronic signature pad, and the customer input the choice, not the cashier. There was no DCC at a number of other tourist places or chain restaurants. I asked my sister-in-law not to bias the experiment by stating that she wanted to pay in USD, so we kept silent during each transaction and let things play out.
At Forever 21, there did not appear to be a timeout or automatic selection even after about 20 seconds or so, at least at Forever 21, because I was fumbling to get out my camera as quickly as possible to take a picture. As I also indicated in my post from the other week there was no DCC at Macy's, the Cheesecake Factory, or at two of the Napa wineries we visited. After Presidents Day weekend, she made the following purchases in the US:
Popeyes - Santa Clara, CA
Transaction Date: 2/20/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/22/2015
Posted Amount: A$22.04
Currency Exchange Fee: A$0.55
IT’SUGAR - Monterey, CA
At first glance I thought we had a DCC candidate, but the screen was simply asking us to confirm the transaction amount (in USD).
Transaction Date: 2/21/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/23/2015
Posted Amount: A$10.24
Currency Exchange Fee: A$0.26
Sea Otter Shirts - Monterey, CA
Transaction Date: 2/21/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/24/2015
Posted Amount: A$27.60
Currency Exchange Fee: A$0.69
Ghirardelli Chocolate - Monterey, CA
Transaction Date: 2/21/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/24/2015
Posted Amount: A$41.01
Currency Exchange Fee: A$1.03
Linn's - Cambria, CA
Transaction Date: 2/21/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/23/2015
Posted Amount: A$76.97
Currency Exchange Fee: A$1.92
Nordstrom - San Jose, CA
Transaction Date: 2/23/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/24/2015
Posted Amount: A$36.34
Currency Exchange Fee: A$0.90
tl;dr version - we didn't see DCC beyond Forever 21 and Kate Spade, both of which made the DCC offer on the electronic signature pad, and the customer input the choice, not the cashier. There was no DCC at a number of other tourist places or chain restaurants. I asked my sister-in-law not to bias the experiment by stating that she wanted to pay in USD, so we kept silent during each transaction and let things play out.
At Forever 21, there did not appear to be a timeout or automatic selection even after about 20 seconds or so, at least at Forever 21, because I was fumbling to get out my camera as quickly as possible to take a picture. As I also indicated in my post from the other week there was no DCC at Macy's, the Cheesecake Factory, or at two of the Napa wineries we visited. After Presidents Day weekend, she made the following purchases in the US:
Popeyes - Santa Clara, CA
Transaction Date: 2/20/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/22/2015
Posted Amount: A$22.04
Currency Exchange Fee: A$0.55
IT’SUGAR - Monterey, CA
At first glance I thought we had a DCC candidate, but the screen was simply asking us to confirm the transaction amount (in USD).
Transaction Date: 2/21/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/23/2015
Posted Amount: A$10.24
Currency Exchange Fee: A$0.26
Sea Otter Shirts - Monterey, CA
Transaction Date: 2/21/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/24/2015
Posted Amount: A$27.60
Currency Exchange Fee: A$0.69
Ghirardelli Chocolate - Monterey, CA
Transaction Date: 2/21/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/24/2015
Posted Amount: A$41.01
Currency Exchange Fee: A$1.03
Linn's - Cambria, CA
Transaction Date: 2/21/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/23/2015
Posted Amount: A$76.97
Currency Exchange Fee: A$1.92
Nordstrom - San Jose, CA
Transaction Date: 2/23/2015
Transaction Posting Date: 2/24/2015
Posted Amount: A$36.34
Currency Exchange Fee: A$0.90
Mar 2, 2015, 6:50 am
#1732
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: EWR-SEA-IAD
Programs: UA 1P MM, AS MVP G*, SPG Gold, Hyatt Plat, IHG Plat, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold
Posts: 977
I've been using my Apple Pay here in Hk for almost a week now and I haven't had any dcc requests while using it. Does NFC payment help prevent DCC?
Mar 2, 2015, 8:34 am
#1733
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,059
I'm always the most concerned about DCC with small transaction amounts. These are the kind where the transaction is under $25 US equivalent, and the DCC markup is up to $1.25. The bank isn't likely to take up your case - I would still fight on principle - in the form of a chargeback, and in some cases your issuer might brush you off completely. These are also the cases where staff might deliberately select DCC for you, knowing that you're unlikely to fight it.
Mar 5, 2015, 4:17 pm
#1734
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,507
I almost got hit by DCC on PayPal just now. At checkout PayPal automatically chose my bank account, so I went and selected my card. It still showed a USD amount. Turns out that there's a very small drop-down that's very easy to miss that will let you opt out of DCC, but it cleared my credit card selection and selected my bank account again when I did this! This time, re-selecting my card showed the GBP amount instead of USD (1 USD = 0.63998 GBP according to PayPal).
Anyway, Diners Club shows a whole lot of information about the transaction and the pending PayPal transaction still says that the amount was in USD:
However, PayPal's rate would mean that my Ł14 purchase would have costed $21.88 vs. the $21.51 that DC apparently charged. xe.com says 1 USD = 0.65579 GBP (aka $21.35). Could DC's exchange rates just be bad or is this in line with other cards when opting out of DCC?
Anyway, Diners Club shows a whole lot of information about the transaction and the pending PayPal transaction still says that the amount was in USD:
However, PayPal's rate would mean that my Ł14 purchase would have costed $21.88 vs. the $21.51 that DC apparently charged. xe.com says 1 USD = 0.65579 GBP (aka $21.35). Could DC's exchange rates just be bad or is this in line with other cards when opting out of DCC?
Mar 5, 2015, 11:27 pm
#1735
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,059
It's hard to say how PayPal runs the transaction. Usually the DCC amount is the pending transaction amount. DC's rates would be competitive since they'd be using MasterCard's exchange rate, right?
Mar 6, 2015, 12:26 am
#1736
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,507
Mar 6, 2015, 4:51 am
#1737
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Programs: KL Gold, SQ KF Gold, CX Green
Posts: 9,399
What would you do in the following case?
When I checked in at the Sukhothai Hotel, Bangkok, they swiped my credit card "just for guarantee". I didn't sign or press any buttons. When I checked out 3 days later, I expected to have to pay but they told me my card had already been charged. They gave me a hotel invoice (in THB), but no credit card receipt at all.
Sure enough, when I received my credit card statement yesterday they had charged me in the currency of my Visa card. The rate seems to be about 2% worse than other THB transactions around the same date.
What would you do in this case?
When I checked in at the Sukhothai Hotel, Bangkok, they swiped my credit card "just for guarantee". I didn't sign or press any buttons. When I checked out 3 days later, I expected to have to pay but they told me my card had already been charged. They gave me a hotel invoice (in THB), but no credit card receipt at all.
Sure enough, when I received my credit card statement yesterday they had charged me in the currency of my Visa card. The rate seems to be about 2% worse than other THB transactions around the same date.
What would you do in this case?
Mar 6, 2015, 5:14 am
#1738
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
What would you do in the following case?
When I checked in at the Sukhothai Hotel, Bangkok, they swiped my credit card "just for guarantee". I didn't sign or press any buttons. When I checked out 3 days later, I expected to have to pay but they told me my card had already been charged. They gave me a hotel invoice (in THB), but no credit card receipt at all.
Sure enough, when I received my credit card statement yesterday they had charged me in the currency of my Visa card. The rate seems to be about 2% worse than other THB transactions around the same date.
What would you do in this case?
When I checked in at the Sukhothai Hotel, Bangkok, they swiped my credit card "just for guarantee". I didn't sign or press any buttons. When I checked out 3 days later, I expected to have to pay but they told me my card had already been charged. They gave me a hotel invoice (in THB), but no credit card receipt at all.
Sure enough, when I received my credit card statement yesterday they had charged me in the currency of my Visa card. The rate seems to be about 2% worse than other THB transactions around the same date.
What would you do in this case?
1. You call your credit card issuer's customer service rep and state you are disputing the charge because contrary to visa/mc regulations, you were not given the choice of paying in bahts as required by the merchant's contract.
2. You may be offered by the credit card company to have the difference refunded on the spot especially if it's relatively small. If the customer service rep refuses, you ask to speak to a supervisor.
3. If that doesn't work, you follow procedures for disputing a charge. Now different countries have different laws regarding this so I can't tell you what will happen in your situation. In the USA there are a whole set of procedures laid out in the Truth in Lending law. You send via e-mail a copy of your letter to the hotel also threatening them you will expose their deceptive and illegal practices on various forums that will reflect badly on the hotel. Out of this, you may get some sort of courtesy response including extra rewards or a reduced price for your next stay or whatever.
4. At some point, the credit card company might do the right thing and charge back the charge and the hotel may re-submit done properly. Or, again a lot depends on local law n the country where the card was issue tough noogies.
Mar 6, 2015, 8:02 am
#1739
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,059
What would you do in the following case?
When I checked in at the Sukhothai Hotel, Bangkok, they swiped my credit card "just for guarantee". I didn't sign or press any buttons. When I checked out 3 days later, I expected to have to pay but they told me my card had already been charged. They gave me a hotel invoice (in THB), but no credit card receipt at all.
Sure enough, when I received my credit card statement yesterday they had charged me in the currency of my Visa card. The rate seems to be about 2% worse than other THB transactions around the same date.
What would you do in this case?
When I checked in at the Sukhothai Hotel, Bangkok, they swiped my credit card "just for guarantee". I didn't sign or press any buttons. When I checked out 3 days later, I expected to have to pay but they told me my card had already been charged. They gave me a hotel invoice (in THB), but no credit card receipt at all.
Sure enough, when I received my credit card statement yesterday they had charged me in the currency of my Visa card. The rate seems to be about 2% worse than other THB transactions around the same date.
What would you do in this case?
The same thing has happened to me at some hotels in Europe before I knew about DCC. This is why I always insist on seeing the credit card transaction receipt before leaving because I have gotten involuntarily opted in to DCC before. What I do now for the preauthorizations at hotels is swipe my American Express, which does not have the capability of DCC. Then when checking out I say that I want to change my payment method and specify local currency at that time.
Mar 6, 2015, 9:52 am
#1740
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,799
What would you do in the following case?
When I checked in at the Sukhothai Hotel, Bangkok, they swiped my credit card "just for guarantee". I didn't sign or press any buttons. When I checked out 3 days later, I expected to have to pay but they told me my card had already been charged. They gave me a hotel invoice (in THB), but no credit card receipt at all.
Sure enough, when I received my credit card statement yesterday they had charged me in the currency of my Visa card. The rate seems to be about 2% worse than other THB transactions around the same date.
What would you do in this case?
When I checked in at the Sukhothai Hotel, Bangkok, they swiped my credit card "just for guarantee". I didn't sign or press any buttons. When I checked out 3 days later, I expected to have to pay but they told me my card had already been charged. They gave me a hotel invoice (in THB), but no credit card receipt at all.
Sure enough, when I received my credit card statement yesterday they had charged me in the currency of my Visa card. The rate seems to be about 2% worse than other THB transactions around the same date.
What would you do in this case?
I initially thought it wasn't allowed, but it is, subject to certain requirements http://usa.visa.com/download/merchan...n.pdf#page=576 . These requirement are being followed as assiduously as US DOT on rule 399.88.
The bxstardy thing about this express checkout thing is there is no obvious written documentation you *did not consent* - unlike a merchant slip where you ticked and maybe have a carbon merchant copy/taken a snapshot of the thermal merchant copy.
I'm not sure how well are banks with chargebacks in the Netherlands but here are the two extremes:
- in the US they will probably accept your complaint based on your own assertion but refund you out of pocket
- in HK they will require *you* to provide the documentary proof you opted out of DCC (this is not right - the merchant's bank (acquirer) has the burden of proof, but HK banks know they will not get into trouble for ignoring your complaint unless you have the proof so you can escalate the complaint to the HK bank regulator) but are more likely to pursue full disputes with the Thai hotel/its acquirer
As Majuki said it's probably better to insist on card charge on checkout every time. Use the excuse we used in the BoC Shenzhen Futian case - "we are participating in a card promo which requires us to sign a slip".
The other type of hotel charge is worse - DCC on prepaid rate (sorry, the offending hotel happens to be in Amsterdam).
Last edited by percysmith; Mar 6, 2015 at 8:45 pm