Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Credit, Debit and Prepaid Card Programs > Credit Card Programs
Reload this Page >

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

    Hide Wikipost
Old Jan 15, 16, 11:38 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: philemer
Wiki Link
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
Print Wikipost

Closed Thread

Old Mar 14, 15, 11:18 am
  #10261  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SJC/SFO
Posts: 305
Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
Since First Tech is converting to MC, info on MC (not Visa) credit card signature vs pin fees is needed for my discussion.
Sure. Mastercard interchange fees:

http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchan...April_2014.pdf

Again, no distinction between PIN and signature (other than debit vs credit).
blaz is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 11:51 am
  #10262  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: The UK
Posts: 154
I'm confused by First Tech's statement that they haven't been able to add offline capability yet. Their processor is blocking them from adding offline PIN to their CVM list?? I really hope that they can add offline PIN. Online PIN only would be a semi-letdown.
uklevi is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 12:38 pm
  #10263  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: home = LAX
Posts: 23,597
Originally Posted by upnorth View Post
Is there any difference between a “Chip and PIN” card and a “Chip and Signature” card?
Both Chip and PIN and Chip and Signature cards offer better fraud protection than traditional magnetic stripe cards. The only difference is that the Chip and PIN card requires you to enter a PIN at checkout while the Chip and Signature card only requires your signature. Good news! Capital One chip cards will be Chip and Signature cards, so there’s no additional PIN to remember.
No, if you travel internatonally that's not the only difference. In certain countires, in unmanned koisks, only PIN cards are accepted, no signature cards are accepted. Isn't that a big dfiference???

Now, if you never travel internationally (or if you travel internationally but only in groups and thus never pay indivudually for most things overseas, or if you only travel to those specific countries where chip & signature is the norm, or if you don't mind having a card that doesn't work certain places but would if you had a chip & PIN card), then this may not matter to you. But it certainly matters to plenty of other people.

But will Cap1 really be a chip-and-signature-only card, or will it have PIN backup? (You don't need PIN as a primary payment method for international situations, but you do need PIN as a backup method.)

Cap1 is famous for no foreign transaction fees, and that's only of value when traveling internationally (or perhaps when buying for foreign websites?), so having no support for PIN at all in a Cap1 csrd, I would call that bad news!
sdsearch is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 2:22 pm
  #10264  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,746
Originally Posted by sdsearch View Post
No, if you travel internatonally that's not the only difference. In certain countires, in unmanned koisks, only PIN cards are accepted, no signature cards are accepted. Isn't that a big dfiference???

Now, if you never travel internationally (or if you travel internationally but only in groups and thus never pay indivudually for most things overseas, or if you only travel to those specific countries where chip & signature is the norm, or if you don't mind having a card that doesn't work certain places but would if you had a chip & PIN card), then this may not matter to you. But it certainly matters to plenty of other people.

But will Cap1 really be a chip-and-signature-only card, or will it have PIN backup? (You don't need PIN as a primary payment method for international situations, but you do need PIN as a backup method.)

Cap1 is famous for no foreign transaction fees, and that's only of value when traveling internationally (or perhaps when buying for foreign websites?), so having no support for PIN at all in a Cap1 csrd, I would call that bad news!
All somewhat true but do bear in mind visa (and presumably the other networks) claims they will be changing regulations prohibiting kiosks from enforcing a no pin no purchase policy. If they do (a big if admittedly) then what?
JEFFJAGUAR is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 2:36 pm
  #10265  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,184
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
All somewhat true but do bear in mind visa (and presumably the other networks) claims they will be changing regulations prohibiting kiosks from enforcing a no pin no purchase policy. If they do (a big if admittedly) then what?
That impending regulation only applies if the kiosk is already capable of online transactions. Offline only ones can continue to be PIN only. Of course there's no way to tell that it's such a kiosk until you try to use a signature only card and it gets denied. Even then, you just need a card that has an offline PIN somewhere on the CVM list.

Speaking of offline PIN I wonder if upnorth would have had similarly good results as UNFCU had he gone with something like the Arrival+ or Andrews/SDFCU cards instead. I kinda suspect that his problems were offline transaction related and not signature related.
tmiw is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 3:53 pm
  #10266  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 701
Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
That impending regulation only applies if the kiosk is already capable of online transactions. Offline only ones can continue to be PIN only. Of course there's no way to tell that it's such a kiosk until you try to use a signature only card and it gets denied. Even then, you just need a card that has an offline PIN somewhere on the CVM list.

Speaking of offline PIN I wonder if upnorth would have had similarly good results as UNFCU had he gone with something like the Arrival+ or Andrews/SDFCU cards instead. I kinda suspect that his problems were offline transaction related and not signature related.
Signature transactions will never be "similarly good results" compared to more secure and quicker pin transactions. Like here in the US, but a bigger hassle and time waster and generating annoyance by the merchants and other held up customers about the signature signing tourists abroad, signature transactions are and will always be inferior to using pins.

Currently, either ya get no FTF signature priority with offline support with Barclay Arrival+, Andrews, and a few other government/armed services servicing FCUs, or ya get offline pin priority only at UN FCU (with AF?) and 1% ISA, or only online pin priority with no AF or FTF at First Tech.

I predict more pin priority once the public finally understands the value of pin over signature in security and speed. Aren't pins needed for at least high dollar NFC transactions anyway?

Let's all continue to be vocal about this to get pin priority in place sooner.
uds0 is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 4:10 pm
  #10267  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 701
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
All somewhat true but do bear in mind visa (and presumably the other networks) claims they will be changing regulations prohibiting kiosks from enforcing a no pin no purchase policy. If they do (a big if admittedly) then what?
Back in March 2014, the most recent time I used a train ticket machine in Italy, I was able to buy tickets with a chip & signature card without being prompted for a pin, but only a few euros were involved so the "no CVM" was probably used. Sorry, I don't recall which chip card, and even if I knew, that may not reliably indicate the network status.

The offline pin remains important if only for network outages, which seems too often for my comfort in Italy at least. As long as ATMs have very stable network access, I can get by for all but getting stranded in an unattended gas station, parking lot, and perhaps a few other places.

The bottom line is that I simple don't need the stress of wondering each time I attempt a purchase at an unmanned station whether it will actually work, nor the delay and embarrassment holding up a line because of this stupid chip and signature priority thing.
uds0 is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 4:29 pm
  #10268  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 701
Originally Posted by blaz View Post
Sure. Mastercard interchange fees:

http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchan...April_2014.pdf

Again, no distinction between PIN and signature (other than debit vs credit).
Thanks for that link - I did search but google apparently wasn't my best buddy at the time.

Hmmm ...

"U.S. Region MasterCard PIN Debit Rates"

is indeed the only reference to PIN, and the rates do seem much lower in that section than the rest of the document which does not mention Signature OR Pin. It's odd that there is no explicit section for PIN Credit or at least a note that there is no difference between signature and pin for Credit.

I've added that observation to my agenda for the next conversation (hopefully Monday) with my First Tech MC transition implementation deep throat contact (no, his initials are NOT LL .
uds0 is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 4:33 pm
  #10269  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 701
Originally Posted by uklevi View Post
I'm confused by First Tech's statement that they haven't been able to add offline capability yet. Their processor is blocking them from adding offline PIN to their CVM list?? I really hope that they can add offline PIN. Online PIN only would be a semi-letdown.
My understanding is that, since the processor isn't currently allowing offline, there's no point in adding offline CVM to the cards.

First Tech may also want to avoid the processor changing their mind without letting First Tech know so that offline suddenly gets enabled without whatever First Tech's part might be to assure it works properly.

or .... First Tech may be trying to get multiple high visibility marketing impacts by releasing significant "new" features spaced apart in time?

Last edited by uds0; Mar 14, 15 at 4:40 pm
uds0 is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 4:43 pm
  #10270  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 701
OT: you folks who get posts on your smart phones, do you get them pretty quick after posts occur?

I ask because often I see simple visual improvements, stupid typos, or unclear statements that I try to correct quickly without using preview and thus may cause multiple [slightly improved] copies of a post to be issued in rapid succession.
uds0 is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 5:11 pm
  #10271  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,184
Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
Signature transactions will never be "similarly good results" compared to more secure and quicker pin transactions. Like here in the US, but a bigger hassle and time waster and generating annoyance by the merchants and other held up customers about the signature signing tourists abroad, signature transactions are and will always be inferior to using pins.

Currently, either ya get no FTF signature priority with offline support with Barclay Arrival+, Andrews, and a few other government/armed services servicing FCUs, or ya get offline pin priority only at UN FCU (with AF?) and 1% ISA, or only online pin priority with no AF or FTF at First Tech.

I predict more pin priority once the public finally understands the value of pin over signature in security and speed. Aren't pins needed for at least high dollar NFC transactions anyway?

Let's all continue to be vocal about this to get pin priority in place sooner.
My main point was that declines would probably have been prevented if offline PIN was somewhere on the card. Having it be first just improves convenience and security but for the purposes of international travel is not strictly necessary for most people.

Also I remember seeing a page a while back where Italian debit cards had offline PIN at the ATM. I could have been remembering wrong though.

Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
OT: you folks who get posts on your smart phones, do you get them pretty quick after posts occur?

I ask because often I see simple visual improvements, stupid typos, or unclear statements that I try to correct quickly without using preview and thus may cause multiple [slightly improved] copies of a post to be issued in rapid succession.
I use the full site on my phone because the mobile site never really works right for me. And I use email notifications too so I see posts right away.
tmiw is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 5:27 pm
  #10272  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SAN
Posts: 1,050
Originally Posted by sdsearch View Post
But will Cap1 really be a chip-and-signature-only card, or will it have PIN backup? (You don't need PIN as a primary payment method for international situations, but you do need PIN as a backup method.)
Venture and VentureOne EMV cards, like their magstripe-only predecessors, support PIN only for cash advances. For purchases it's signature and No CVM only.
Hawaiian717 is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 6:35 pm
  #10273  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
IHG Contributor BadgeMarriott Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SEA
Programs: Delta - Silver; UA - Silver; HHonors - Diamond; IHG - Spire Ambassador; Marriott Bonvoy - Titanium
Posts: 12,862
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
A couple of other thoughts. Interesting to note that UNFCU we have pretty much agreed has offline pin as a priority; at least I think it's offline pin. They issue visa cards so apparently visa can process offline pin.

Also, when USAA first issued emv commpliant cards, they were mastercards and the original cards I believe were offline pin; at least I was definitely able to use those cards at pos terminals in the UK and was asked to enter a pin and I think it was offline pin until they pulled the garbage of backtracking to signature preferred but their literature continues to make whether one is asked for a pin or a signature as a function of the merchant, not their ordering of priorities. And it's interesting to note that as of the last time I checked, USAA was only offering emv complant cards as mastercards, not visa cards.
If UNFCU has no online PIN support at all, and Wal Mart terminals are online, then where does a PIN request for any purchase, no matter how small, come in?

My card arrived today, and is activated, but their customer service staff for requesting the PIN itself is closed for the weekend. Absolutely NO mention of a PIN whatsoever in the paperwork.
Points Scrounger is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 6:53 pm
  #10274  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 701
Originally Posted by Points Scrounger View Post
If UNFCU has no online PIN support at all, and Wal Mart terminals are online, then where does a PIN request for any purchase, no matter how small, come in?

My card arrived today, and is activated, but their customer service staff for requesting the PIN itself is closed for the weekend. Absolutely NO mention of a PIN whatsoever in the paperwork.
An online terminal may (should?) be able to use the offline pin on the card (which can also be used with offline terminals). The online terminal could request the card to validate the offline pin on it against the pin entered, or perhaps get the pin from the card to validate the transaction, or ignore the pin on the card since it's online and able to verify the pin with the card processor.

Typically a separate mail piece will have the initial pin code. You may even have a challenge getting or replacing the pin from CS without that mailed pin.

Some issuers (Andrews?!?) ONLY mail the pin reminder to the home address if the cardholder requests a reminder, and won't change the pin without the cardholder providing the current pin. And DUH, what if the cardholder is traveling with no access to the home address mail? Hopefully UN FCU isn't that difficult with lost pins while traveling. Best to have a trusted mail handler available by phone if needed.

UPDATE: https://www.andrewsfcu.org/credit_ca...resources.html
documents how to change the pin for Andrews. Worth noting is that that same article tells you to use the mag strip in the US rather than benefit from using the chip dip!

Apparently, one of my other cards is the one that doesn't allow pin reset except via mail to registered address. My apologies to Andrews.

Last edited by uds0; Mar 15, 15 at 10:54 am Reason: Andrews DOES support pin change (via phone)
uds0 is offline  
Old Mar 14, 15, 7:17 pm
  #10275  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
IHG Contributor BadgeMarriott Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SEA
Programs: Delta - Silver; UA - Silver; HHonors - Diamond; IHG - Spire Ambassador; Marriott Bonvoy - Titanium
Posts: 12,862
Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
An online terminal may (should?) be able to use the offline pin on the card (which can also be used with offline terminals). The online terminal could request the card to validate the offline pin on it against the pin entered, or perhaps get the pin from the card to validate the transaction, or ignore the pin on the card since it's online and able to verify the pin with the card processor.

Typically a separate mail piece will have the initial pin code. You may even have a challenge getting or replacing the pin from CS without that mailed pin.

Some issuers (Andrews?!?) ONLY mail the pin reminder to the home address if the cardholder requests a reminder, and won't change the pin without the cardholder providing the current pin. And DUH, what if the cardholder is traveling with no access to the home address mail? Hopefully UN FCU isn't that difficult with lost pins while traveling. Best to have a trusted mail handler available by phone if needed.
My Wells Fargo Visa instructions were very clear that the PIN (for foreign kiosks) cannot be changed, and that the number can only be sent to the address-of-record.
Points Scrounger is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread