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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

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Old Jan 15, 16, 11:38 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: philemer
Wiki Link
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old Mar 14, 15, 12:33 am
  #10246  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
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Originally Posted by AllieKat View Post
I was at a shop today with an FD130 that had EMV disabled (or wasn't enforcing the service code). I was quite surprised, as I thought these were all enabled and enforcing!
It depends on the back end merchant service processor. Wells Fargo's First Data equipment isn't chip enabled yet, and will get a software update in a few months.


Also tmiw may find this interesting, Walmart self checkouts seem to be outright declining EMV cards when trying to swipe them, requiring you to use the chip. Not quite enforcing the service code, but this seems to be interesting method of getting people to use the chip. A guy in front of me looked frustrated when his card kept declining, and the cashier came over exclaiming that he has to use the chip. Lo and behold, same held true me right behind the guy, tried to swipe my chipped USAA, and it looked like it was going to go through, but then just said it was declined, I then used the chip and it all worked! I hope that Walmart isn't going to use this bizarre method of enforcing the service code, and go back to the right way of enforcing it. This method is very unclear for people as it doesn't put up a message or anything about putting the chip in.
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Old Mar 14, 15, 1:02 am
  #10247  
 
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Originally Posted by RedLight2015 View Post
It depends on the back end merchant service processor. Wells Fargo's First Data equipment isn't chip enabled yet, and will get a software update in a few months.


Also tmiw may find this interesting, Walmart self checkouts seem to be outright declining EMV cards when trying to swipe them, requiring you to use the chip. Not quite enforcing the service code, but this seems to be interesting method of getting people to use the chip. A guy in front of me looked frustrated when his card kept declining, and the cashier came over exclaiming that he has to use the chip. Lo and behold, same held true me right behind the guy, tried to swipe my chipped USAA, and it looked like it was going to go through, but then just said it was declined, I then used the chip and it all worked! I hope that Walmart isn't going to use this bizarre method of enforcing the service code, and go back to the right way of enforcing it. This method is very unclear for people as it doesn't put up a message or anything about putting the chip in.
Good to know, boo to the back-end processor not setting up EMV!

As to Walmart, their system is so messed up...
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Old Mar 14, 15, 5:29 am
  #10248  
 
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Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
My impression is that pin bypass capability may, unfortunately, be [processor?/]merchant/terminal specific. I don't have details on whether the processor, merchant, or the terminal controls this.
The pin bypass capability is issuer specific.
You can see it either at a CVM list for EMV card or at a service code for magstripe card.

Last edited by Lyolik; Mar 14, 15 at 5:42 am
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Old Mar 14, 15, 5:50 am
  #10249  
 
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Maybe, I'm the only voice of reason here. Don't you guys get it yet. We can complain from now until the chickens come home to roost, it's all over as to what is going to happen in the USA. The die has been cast. The USA is going to be, at least for the time being, chip and signature almost entirely; that is for those merchants who will be convinced it is in their best interests to begin processing emv cards. Period. Scream all we want, it isn't going to change.

As far as well we might have trouble in (fill in whatever country you want) if we don't have a "true" chip and pin card, go out and get the UNFCU card and carry it qround in your pocket just in case. Yes I know it has a 1% ftf and its rewards programme sucks but hopefully it will stay in your wallet only available for the odd time you need it. At least it isn't a 3% ftf.

In all due respect, do you guys lay (or is it lie) awake at night worrying that your card account lacking a pin will be more likely to be compromised? Not worth it. As I've said before, either you use the card once a month only for "large" purchases as some so called genius travel writers have suggested or you use them for the purpose for which they were intended i.e. for every last purchase large or small and to make purchases online and to make hotel reservations and... The more you use the card, the greater the likelihood it will be compromised. And yes I get it. It can be a pain to have to change the numbers of your automatic billers. Happened to me twice last year.

The bottom line remains. This whole thread started close to 700 pages ago because there were next to no emv compliant cards available and it looked like especially in Europe but other places in the world were heading for no pin no purchase. Hasn't happened and apparently at the strong urging of visa it isn't going to happen that way. Obviously signatures are worthless for security purposes and pins would be preferable. But it just isn't going to happen for whatever the reason.

Is it worth it to continue to whine about it? And again I don't mean to come across nasty or contrary minded to anybody. It is what it is and it ins't going to be anything that isn't no matter how much we complain.

Last edited by JEFFJAGUAR; Mar 14, 15 at 5:57 am
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Old Mar 14, 15, 6:10 am
  #10250  
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For a start, i actively searched for these types of thread, after rude shocks of my US cards not working overseas. Only because of forums such as these, I came to know about UNFCU. My card usage in the US will continue to be driven by my maximizing my cash back rewards. Outside the US 90% of my trips will be what ever chip and pin card that works. Even If it caries 3% FTF, I don't care. My trips are business related. I work for a state university and our business office is not as evolved as the corporate world. So I use my card and then seek reimbursement. I might add that even in the US, I would prefer a chip and pin for restaurant usage, because I do not like handing over my signature only credit cards to the waiter. Because the swipe can be copied and the card used without my knowledge. I get it it that, for fraudulent usage, I would have to report the fraud, which means going through every transaction on my cards on a regular basis. If these cards were only chip and pin, I would not have to do that. Right?
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Old Mar 14, 15, 7:03 am
  #10251  
 
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
Maybe, I'm the only voice of reason here. Don't you guys get it yet. We can complain from now until the chickens come home to roost, it's all over as to what is going to happen in the USA. The die has been cast. The USA is going to be, at least for the time being, chip and signature almost entirely; that is for those merchants who will be convinced it is in their best interests to begin processing emv cards. Period. Scream all we want, it isn't going to change.

As far as well we might have trouble in (fill in whatever country you want) if we don't have a "true" chip and pin card, go out and get the UNFCU card and carry it qround in your pocket just in case. Yes I know it has a 1% ftf and its rewards programme sucks but hopefully it will stay in your wallet only available for the odd time you need it. At least it isn't a 3% ftf.

In all due respect, do you guys lay (or is it lie) awake at night worrying that your card account lacking a pin will be more likely to be compromised? Not worth it. As I've said before, either you use the card once a month only for "large" purchases as some so called genius travel writers have suggested or you use them for the purpose for which they were intended i.e. for every last purchase large or small and to make purchases online and to make hotel reservations and... The more you use the card, the greater the likelihood it will be compromised. And yes I get it. It can be a pain to have to change the numbers of your automatic billers. Happened to me twice last year.

The bottom line remains. This whole thread started close to 700 pages ago because there were next to no emv compliant cards available and it looked like especially in Europe but other places in the world were heading for no pin no purchase. Hasn't happened and apparently at the strong urging of visa it isn't going to happen that way. Obviously signatures are worthless for security purposes and pins would be preferable. But it just isn't going to happen for whatever the reason.

Is it worth it to continue to whine about it? And again I don't mean to come across nasty or contrary minded to anybody. It is what it is and it ins't going to be anything that isn't no matter how much we complain.
I've been lobbying for UNFCU to remove the 1% VISA ISA fee. They are apparently looking into it. Anyone can join the cause by emailing the Board of Directors and telling them how asinine the fee is. I really don't care if the US goes Chip and Signature (the US always does whatever it wants anyway), as long as there are a couple PIN-preferring no-FTF cards available.
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Old Mar 14, 15, 9:07 am
  #10252  
 
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Originally Posted by upnorth View Post
I had my very first US chip and pin transaction - at Walmart. Thrilled to see a chip and pin in action. I could not upload the image, but the AID is
A0000000031010
*Pin verified
Validation XGFV
Praise the great pin priority deity!

What card please (I'll take a wild guess - UN FCU? )
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Old Mar 14, 15, 9:22 am
  #10253  
 
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Originally Posted by upnorth View Post
Is there any difference between a “Chip and PIN” card and a “Chip and Signature” card?
Both Chip and PIN and Chip and Signature cards offer better fraud protection than traditional magnetic stripe cards. The only difference is that the Chip and PIN card requires you to enter a PIN at checkout while the Chip and Signature card only requires your signature. Good news! Capital One chip cards will be Chip and Signature cards, so there’s no additional PIN to remember.
(because Americans are too stupid to be capable of using a pin despite being able to set the pin to the same as their ATM debit card!?!)

Yep, whining does little but to extend this thread - and it does blow off a little steam and keep the public reminded of this potential misery and hopefully gets back to the banks.

Is it reasonable to expect that Capital One is, for all practical purposes, going to undo any chip and pin priority for all HSBC cards that might currently have it? I can imagine getting a chip and pin priority during this transition period and than them pulling a USAA!

Clearly, the specific banks that are obviously and deliberately misrepresenting the security and added value benefits of their "chip and pin" cards since that feature can only be actually be used in an extremely small subset of everyone's actual use, are, for all practical purposes, lying about the product so that they can profit from larger signature transaction fees vs pin fees.

Although they might be technically legally correct, they're obvious intent is to sell a product that is not the one they represent.
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Old Mar 14, 15, 9:33 am
  #10254  
 
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Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
Clearly, the specific banks that are obviously and deliberately misrepresenting the security and added value benefits of their "chip and pin" cards since that feature can only be actually be used in an extremely small subset of everyone's actual use, are, for all practical purposes, lying about the product so that they can profit from larger signature transaction fees vs pin fees.
There are no "larger signature transaction fees vs pin fees." There's credit processing and debit processing, but no matter how you run a credit card (PIN, signature, no CVM, manual entry, magstripe...) the transaction is going to be processed as a credit card using credit fees.

The fee distinction really only applies to debit cards, and even there it's not "sig vs pin," it's whether the transaction runs over a credit network or a debit network.
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Old Mar 14, 15, 9:48 am
  #10255  
 
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Originally Posted by lordsutch View Post
There are no "larger signature transaction fees vs pin fees." There's credit processing and debit processing, but no matter how you run a credit card (PIN, signature, no CVM, manual entry, magstripe...) the transaction is going to be processed as a credit card using credit fees.

The fee distinction really only applies to debit cards, and even there it's not "sig vs pin," it's whether the transaction runs over a credit network or a debit network.
My expert source within First Tech states that the fee is higher for signature transactions vs pin transactions for credit cards, regardless of the technical reasons.

Please cite your authority so that I can discuss with my source.

Thanks!

Last edited by uds0; Mar 14, 15 at 10:10 am
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Old Mar 14, 15, 10:04 am
  #10256  
 
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Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
My expert source within First Tech states that the fee is higher for signature transactions vs pin transactions, regardless of the technical reasons.

Please cite your authority so that I can discuss with my source.

Thanks!
Visa USA Interchange Reimbursement Fees:

http://usa.visa.com/download/merchan...014-Oct-18.pdf

Note that it makes a distinction between debit and credit and for credit it distinguishes between Visa Signature (the product) and other types of cards, but it does NOT make a distinction between PIN and signature.
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Old Mar 14, 15, 10:15 am
  #10257  
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Yes it is a UNFCU card and was my first US based transaction. My this week's grocery shopping dollars went to Walmart instead of at Target. Hopefully Target will come out with their promised chip and pin Master card soon.


Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
Praise the great pin priority deity!

What card please (I'll take a wild guess - UN FCU? )
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Old Mar 14, 15, 10:27 am
  #10258  
 
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Originally Posted by blaz View Post
Visa USA Interchange Reimbursement Fees:

http://usa.visa.com/download/merchan...014-Oct-18.pdf

Note that it makes a distinction between debit and credit and for credit it distinguishes between Visa Signature (the product) and other types of cards, but it does NOT make a distinction between PIN and signature.
Since First Tech is converting to MC, info on MC (not Visa) credit card signature vs pin fees is needed for my discussion.

Last edited by uds0; Mar 14, 15 at 10:46 am
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Old Mar 14, 15, 10:39 am
  #10259  
 
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Here is some "light" reading on interchange fees that might provide some clarity and perspective for those who might be interested:

https://www.richmondfed.org/publicat...f/eb_11-05.pdf

And an explanation of the "Durbin" amendment affect on debit card fees.

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banki...ent-explained/

Last edited by uds0; Mar 14, 15 at 10:47 am
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Old Mar 14, 15, 10:57 am
  #10260  
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
Maybe, I'm the only voice of reason here. Don't you guys get it yet. We can complain from now until the chickens come home to roost, it's all over as to what is going to happen in the USA. The die has been cast. The USA is going to be, at least for the time being, chip and signature almost entirely; that is for those merchants who will be convinced it is in their best interests to begin processing emv cards. Period. Scream all we want, it isn't going to change.

As far as well we might have trouble in (fill in whatever country you want) if we don't have a "true" chip and pin card, go out and get the UNFCU card and carry it qround in your pocket just in case. Yes I know it has a 1% ftf and its rewards programme sucks but hopefully it will stay in your wallet only available for the odd time you need it. At least it isn't a 3% ftf.

In all due respect, do you guys lay (or is it lie) awake at night worrying that your card account lacking a pin will be more likely to be compromised? Not worth it. As I've said before, either you use the card once a month only for "large" purchases as some so called genius travel writers have suggested or you use them for the purpose for which they were intended i.e. for every last purchase large or small and to make purchases online and to make hotel reservations and... The more you use the card, the greater the likelihood it will be compromised. And yes I get it. It can be a pain to have to change the numbers of your automatic billers. Happened to me twice last year.

The bottom line remains. This whole thread started close to 700 pages ago because there were next to no emv compliant cards available and it looked like especially in Europe but other places in the world were heading for no pin no purchase. Hasn't happened and apparently at the strong urging of visa it isn't going to happen that way. Obviously signatures are worthless for security purposes and pins would be preferable. But it just isn't going to happen for whatever the reason.

Is it worth it to continue to whine about it? And again I don't mean to come across nasty or contrary minded to anybody. It is what it is and it ins't going to be anything that isn't no matter how much we complain.
You're right in that our cards are unlikely to change CVM priority any time soon, but it should matter because of the potential of C&S to screw over contactless acceptance domestically. For instance, why buy an external PIN pad/NFC reader if almost none of the cards you swipe or insert for people have a PIN or contactless on the card itself? And that whole Apple Pay thing? Nearly all of your customers have Android phones without Google Wallet or have older iPhones, so it's not worth the money.

This assumes you've made the decision to move to EMV, of course. Even the $29 EMV enabled version of the Square reader coupled with an older tablet is a very hard sell for some businesses. Especially in a lower-end restaurant where you maybe lose $20-30 a couple of times a year (not good but not that bad in the overall scheme of things).

And this doesn't even take into account C&S making pay at the table never happen in the US. The few restaurants that are EMV enabled still take cards to the back and swipe/insert as they always have, leaving open the opportunity for a rogue waiter to write down the card info and go on an online shopping spree. Though even if every US card went to PIN they would probably try to maintain the current restaurant payment experience as long as possible in some fashion.

Could be worse though--Visa and MC could have prohibited PIN altogether for credit issuance, leaving us not even being able to choose Diners Club (if they ever reopen apps) or UNFCU/First Tech if we wanted PIN priority.
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