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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

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Old Jan 15, 16, 11:38 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
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Wiki Link
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old Mar 9, 15, 7:14 pm
  #10081  
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Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
So Purchase with at least 1 penny cash back IS PIN priority?!?
Yes, but that's true of ANY card run over the debit network in the States today! What tmiw is telling you is that your Visa card purchases at stores and restaurants will be signature transactions. However ... this adds credence to the proposition that they're switching to MC because those will be PIN-primary for all transactions! In other words, you've jumped the gun a bit in getting a "leftover" Visa card. I'm strongly considering opening a First Tech account now, with the understanding that their debit cards will change over to PIN-primary for (almost) all transactions later this year, which would be good enough for me without having to apply for another credit card. I'm fine with a $25 lunch in Paris being deducted from my checking account, after I enter the PIN.
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Old Mar 9, 15, 7:37 pm
  #10082  
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger View Post
Yes, but that's true of ANY card run over the debit network in the States today! What tmiw is telling you is that your Visa card purchases at stores and restaurants will be signature transactions. However ... this adds credence to the proposition that they're switching to MC because those will be PIN-primary for all transactions! In other words, you've jumped the gun a bit in getting a "leftover" Visa card. I'm strongly considering opening a First Tech account now, with the understanding that their debit cards will change over to PIN-primary for (almost) all transactions later this year, which would be good enough for me without having to apply for another credit card. I'm fine with a $25 lunch in Paris being deducted from my checking account, after I enter the PIN.
I'm really not sure how getting a Visa chip and signature card proves anything about their impending MC rollout. We really should wait until those come out and see use before concluding anything about their CVM lists.

(As an example of how "chip and PIN" is wildly misunderstood, take my recent conversation with an Andrews CSR where they promote their card as chip and PIN when in reality it's actually chip and signature. On top of that, the CSR claimed that the card can't force anything and it's "up to the merchant", also wrong.)
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Old Mar 9, 15, 7:39 pm
  #10083  
 
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger View Post
Yes, but that's true of ANY card run over the debit network in the States today! What tmiw is telling you is that your Visa card purchases at stores and restaurants will be signature transactions. However ... this adds credence to the proposition that they're switching to MC because those will be PIN-primary for all transactions! In other words, you've jumped the gun a bit in getting a "leftover" Visa card. I'm strongly considering opening a First Tech account now, with the understanding that their debit cards will change over to PIN-primary for (almost) all transactions later this year, which would be good enough for me without having to apply for another credit card. I'm fine with a $25 lunch in Paris being deducted from my checking account, after I enter the PIN.
So a credit card can be used over a debit network (besides ATM)?

Hopefully it's the VISA vs MC issue (although MCs are reportedly not available until I get off the plane returning from my trip in May!
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Old Mar 9, 15, 7:42 pm
  #10084  
 
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger View Post
Yes, but that's true of ANY card run over the debit network in the States today! What tmiw is telling you is that your Visa card purchases at stores and restaurants will be signature transactions. However ... this adds credence to the proposition that they're switching to MC because those will be PIN-primary for all transactions! In other words, you've jumped the gun a bit in getting a "leftover" Visa card. I'm strongly considering opening a First Tech account now, with the understanding that their debit cards will change over to PIN-primary for (almost) all transactions later this year, which would be good enough for me without having to apply for another credit card. I'm fine with a $25 lunch in Paris being deducted from my checking account, after I enter the PIN.
and the additional 1% ISA passthrough fee that First Tech and most debit card issuers pass through. Not a big deal - just annoying and disappointing.
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Old Mar 9, 15, 8:06 pm
  #10085  
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
I'm really not sure how getting a Visa chip and signature card proves anything about their impending MC rollout. We really should wait until those come out and see use before concluding anything about their CVM lists.

(As an example of how "chip and PIN" is wildly misunderstood, take my recent conversation with an Andrews CSR where they promote their card as chip and PIN when in reality it's actually chip and signature. On top of that, the CSR claimed that the card can't force anything and it's "up to the merchant", also wrong.)
Fully agreed, but from First Tech's press release on the changeover, it's clear that they are following UNFCU's lead. I know we disagree on this, but I feel that the banks' conflating/confusing EMV with PIN will result in folks calling in after October demanding a PIN, being told "Oh, but you don't need one!" and getting back, "But, I want one!"

uds0:

No, you cannot run a credit card on a debit network, but then again, you cannot get (extra) cash back from a credit card purchase either. Unfortunately, I would assume that your "leftover" Visa card will be an (old-style) Signature-requiring one.

Last edited by Points Scrounger; Mar 9, 15 at 10:50 pm
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Old Mar 9, 15, 8:52 pm
  #10086  
 
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger View Post
Fully agreed, but from First Tech's press release on the changeover, it's clear that they are following UNFCU's lead. I know we disagree on this, but I feel that the banks' conflating/confusing EMV with PIN will result in folks calling in after October demanding a PIN, beikng told "Oh, but you don't need one!" and getting back, "But, I want one!"

uds0:

No, you cannot run a credit card on a debit network, but then again, you cannot get (extra) cash back from a credit card purchase either. Unfortunately, I would assume that your "leftover" Visa card will be an (old-style) Signature-requiring one.
So what does CVM:

Online PIN - purchase with cashback

actually do?

(it looks like a debit cash card type of transaction, so why in the credit card cvm list?)

Last edited by uds0; Mar 9, 15 at 11:14 pm
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Old Mar 9, 15, 9:29 pm
  #10087  
 
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Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
Just received my First Tech card:

First Tech Platinum Rewards Visa (No AF)
Is this the Points Rewards card or the Cashback Rewards card?
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Old Mar 9, 15, 9:50 pm
  #10088  
 
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Giesecke & Devrient Discover cards now work at Walmart. Nothing seems to have changed on the card, even after a transaction, the logging is gone. I don't recall if I was asked for cash back or not, but it seemed to have worked fine and it went through.

Now, I want to know if they've been fixed everywhere (hopefully), which would represent a back-end change Discover made (since the transactions were getting far enough that Discover saw them); or if Walmart made a software change to make them work (not ideal, though there'd still be hope the cards could be truly fixed through issuer scripts).

Can anyone confirm/deny if G&D Discover cards now work at other chip merchants that take Discover/Diner's?
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Old Mar 9, 15, 11:13 pm
  #10089  
 
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Originally Posted by Hawaiian717 View Post
Is this the Points Rewards card or the Cashback Rewards card?
1% cash back (to savings). They also have 2 different points (not miles) credit cards too. I've always found point cards that have merchandise redemption that is way over priced and very limited number of items.

I'll be having a chat (or 2 or 3 or ???) with First Tech credit card dept tomorrow to review the CVM list with them and, if necessary and available, get on the short list for the MC if it has chip with TRUE pin priority.
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Old Mar 9, 15, 11:23 pm
  #10090  
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FWIW Andrews apparently gets a fair number of calls/complaints about the signature priority from what I could tell. Maybe if there's some sort of way to email someone who would be in a better position to fix it or at least make their marketing clearer.

BTW do we know if any other issuers besides WF and AmEx have decided to implement contactless on their physical EMV cards? Apple Pay goes pretty far but still has gaps (and AmEx cards supporting contactless either have a FTF or insanely high AFs).
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Old Mar 9, 15, 11:31 pm
  #10091  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
BTW do we know if any other issuers besides WF and AmEx have decided to implement contactless on their physical EMV cards? Apple Pay goes pretty far but still has gaps (and AmEx cards supporting contactless either have a FTF or insanely high AFs).
HSBC, US Bank, BMO (Diner's Club)

And NO contactless Amex has zero FTF. Delta, PRG, and Platinum are all not available with contactless.
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Old Mar 9, 15, 11:43 pm
  #10092  
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Originally Posted by AllieKat View Post
HSBC, US Bank, BMO (Diner's Club)

And NO contactless Amex has zero FTF. Delta, PRG, and Platinum are all not available with contactless.
So nothing new compared to last time I looked into it. Except maybe US Bank; I don't remember them offering contactless before.
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Old Mar 9, 15, 11:55 pm
  #10093  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
So nothing new compared to last time I looked into it. Except maybe US Bank; I don't remember them offering contactless before.
They always have, I believe. Maybe I'm wrong but I could swear I've heard of contactless chip cards from them.
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Old Mar 10, 15, 5:32 am
  #10094  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
FWIW Andrews apparently gets a fair number of calls/complaints about the signature priority from what I could tell. Maybe if there's some sort of way to email someone who would be in a better position to fix it or at least make their marketing clearer.

BTW do we know if any other issuers besides WF and AmEx have decided to implement contactless on their physical EMV cards? Apple Pay goes pretty far but still has gaps (and AmEx cards supporting contactless either have a FTF or insanely high AFs).
Part of the reason for their receiving the amount of flack they do is they were sort of first out the door in offering cards with emv chips and have received a great deal of credit for being an American chip and pin card from many travel writers. People then rush to get the card and then and only then find out it is not truly a chip and pin card. I remember much earlier in this thread when I was directed to the card, went through the rigor morol of applying and then only discovered it is primarily chip and signature. Then along came SDFCU. Applied there when everybody said it's chip and pin and then discovered the same thing. Not to repeat the story it took about a year before I was able to acquire a "true" chip and pin card, the USAA world mastercard and I was like a pig rolling around in you know what. Little did I know that a couple of months later, USAA would pull what it pulled. I now have all these cards which I use every so often in the hope they see the light of day (there were rumors here a couple of months ago that SDFCU would be issuing a "true" chip and pin card. So we are really at a cross roads. Either visa gets its way and the chip and signature cards become more or less universally acceptable or some more enlightened banks with half decent rewards programs, no annual fees and no ftf's start issuing "true" chip and pin cards. (Neither UNFCU nor DC meet all those criteria but I carry the UNFCU card when I travel outside the country just in case but the 1% ftf turns me off and discourages me from making it my primary card). Of course if and when more banks begin offering "true" chip and pin cards, then the next problem will be getting merchants to use chip and pin. Indications are that may be just as big of a hassle.
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Old Mar 10, 15, 5:36 am
  #10095  
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I made purchase transaction at a grocery store in Panama City (Panama). It was a USD transaction. In spite of using the pin on my UNFCU Azure Visa, a slip for signature was printed. Any ideas on why?
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