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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

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Old Jan 15, 16, 11:38 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
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Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old Mar 5, 15, 10:26 pm
  #10021  
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Lucky guy! No need for 2 pay stubs or W2 or AGI from last tax return. You will receive a letter informing you of approval and then 10 days later you get the credit card. It is not written there, but after you get the credit card and activate it, you need to call and ask for a pin to be sent. They do not on their own send the pin.
Originally Posted by Points Scrounger View Post
Yesterday, I filled out their online "loan" form for a 10K Azure card, indicating a decent income, but not attaching any documents. The instructions were a bit confusing/contradictory on the matter, with no green check mark for that "requirement", but a disclaimer that documentation may be requested (later) for approval. This evening, not having heard anything, I went to attach the paperwork for assets and 2014 taxable income -- lo and behold, the application status read APPROVED: 10K! I suppose I can expect a confirming message later?
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Old Mar 5, 15, 11:14 pm
  #10022  
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Originally Posted by upnorth View Post
I think it is a flawed logic to assume that moving to a secure chip and pin at POS will lead to more on-line fraud; so let us live with the current insecure system. The liability may rest with Visa, but the enormous work for card users to get new cards and notify auto billing companies is not insignificant. Secondly, the rest of the world has moved to Chip and Pin so it is the US that needs to adapt, not visa trying to arm twist Europeans to change their system. The only reason I got myself a pure chip and pin is because I have had many embarrassing situations where my chip and signature cards or magnetic swipe cards did not work overseas. I would prefer to have a more secure chip and pin in the US, but it is not a deal breaker. But should there be another fraud case at POS, I am going to blog heavily and criticize the companies and name the CEO's and shame them. They have time until October. Most shameful will be if Target joins this crowd. There is no reason, Target can't go for Chip and Pin for its own Target store card. This has nothing to do with Visa or Master Card.
I do kinda understand where the retailers are coming from to an extent. They're being asked to implement something that's supposed to improve security (at fairly significant expense to themselves relative to the issuers), yet nearly all of the cards that will be used with the new systems will not take full advantage. On top of that, the attacks that have happened have been malware based and have not involved traditional skimming, which EMV itself doesn't solve. Remember, there are still a whole lot of online stores that don't even ask for CVV2 let alone a valid address for AVS verification.

Speaking of online stores, we are the last country to attempt to switch to EMV. As a result, it is very possible that the US will see no decrease in the total level of credit card fraud whatsoever. Sure, cloning type fraud will go down, but other forms of fraud will go up right at the same time. When looked at this way, EMV as implemented by the US looks like it's a very poor value for the dollar. At least if we had gone straight to PIN we could point to the stats and say that the majority of card present fraud would go away (instead of the 37% of so that chip and signature would solve).

I look at Coin and think that if it had come out a couple of years before it did it's very possible we'd use that technology instead. A dynamic magnetic stripe allows for tokenization, albeit a primitive form of it. Even if we didn't have Coin-type tech, we could have put a different card number on the magstripe and configured bank systems to disallow all online transactions using it (likewise, the number on the front of the card could be set up at the bank to disallow all in-person transactions). The magstripe can still be cloned but the AI that the banks already use to stop suspicious transactions could help with a large part in stopping transactions on cloned cards. A companion bank app on the phone, especially with location services turned on and "phoning home", would also provide valuable information to the AI to help with fraud prevention.

However, a lot of bigger retailers have the equipment already, so obviously they have no problems playing by Visa/MC's rules. I wonder if it's a play to try to get a 1-2 year extension to the liability shift so that they can finish the necessary software improvements to their POSes to support EMV.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 1:50 am
  #10023  
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Speaking of malware, Krebs reported on a credit card breach at Mandarin Oriental a couple of days ago. Also, REI is switching from Visa to MasterCard as well; no word on whether it's EMV related or not.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 7:52 am
  #10024  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
However, a lot of bigger retailers have the equipment already, so obviously they have no problems playing by Visa/MC's rules. I wonder if it's a play to try to get a 1-2 year extension to the liability shift so that they can finish the necessary software improvements to their POSes to support EMV.
There are not going to be extensions at this point, you're starting to think like a retailer, and that's not good. "Oh no, we're victims. These big awful card networks give us a globally interoperable payment network convenient for us and our customers, dramatically increase our average basket, save us cash handling costs, and increase customer loyalty. Screw them, we don't want it... except we do and would never leave them."

The EMV liability shift was announced years ago. Durbin complicated it, yes. Though merchants can act as if Durbin didn't exist and just run the major networks. Banks have already issued chip cards and fulfilled their side, thus there's no way merchants are getting an extension and they sure as earth shouldn't.

The only merchants I feel maybe should are airlines, because US banks F'd up big time on that one and issued stacks of cards not capable of offline authorisation.

P.S. I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but chip and signature is sufficient to eliminate almost all card present fraud. I just hate it because it's a hassle, PIN is so much easier to use. In fact, EMV in the US will have the nice side effect of further reducing card present fraud on cards issued in OTHER countries, as stolen track data is often used in the US.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 8:14 am
  #10025  
 
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Actually Allie, the simplest and most hassle free is swipe and no signature. Done in seconds! More and more companies are dispensing with signatures, with visa and mc blessing I might add, for small purchases and the reality is, whether you or I like it, is very rare in this day and age since most of the time we swipe our own cards for some 16 year old kid working as a cashier to pick up a few bucks even looks at the signature for amounts under $200. See it every day of the week and twice on Sunday in supermarkets. Now that's truly hassle free; unless your card has been cloned and you get nailed with fraudulent charges I remember reading here of a British visitor to the USA who was absolutely shocked that in many cases no signatures were required and almost never checked on his credit card transactions and that the only place his pin worked was at Walmart! We'll just have to wait and see just how this thing finally shakes out but as I said, it is becoming evident that the USA will be a chip and signature country no matter what. The only question is how many places will use the pin on chip and pin primary cards. I would suggest it will be less than 30%.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 8:15 am
  #10026  
 
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Originally Posted by AllieKat View Post
P.S. I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but chip and signature is sufficient to eliminate almost all card present fraud. I just hate it because it's a hassle, PIN is so much easier to use. In fact, EMV in the US will have the nice side effect of further reducing card present fraud on cards issued in OTHER countries, as stolen track data is often used in the US.
A move to EMV chip-and-signature alone will not stop opportunistic card use if the legitimate card is stolen and used in a card present transaction. Since the vast majority of retailers don't compare signatures in the US there is still a lot a thief could get away with. As I've said before, perhaps the liability shift will cause a renewed interest in checking signatures.

Up until now there was enough benefit of the doubt such that the credit card issuer absorbed the charges most of the time because the retailer could make the argument that the customer used a cloned card that had matching signatures. After EMV enforcement, the assumption is that card present transactions will occur with the legitimate card only. Therefore if the signature between the card and receipt doesn't match, it's on the retailer. So I see the potential of EMV lowering card present fraud tremendously even with chip-and-signature.

I am still a fan of chip-and-PIN, and I think the US will get there eventually... We'll see.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 8:26 am
  #10027  
 
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Originally Posted by Majuki View Post
I am still a fan of chip-and-PIN, and I think the US will get there eventually... We'll see.
The best practice is chip-n-biometrics.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 8:37 am
  #10028  
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
Actually Allie, the simplest and most hassle free is swipe and no signature. Done in seconds! More and more companies are dispensing with signatures, with visa and mc blessing I might add, for small purchases and the reality is, whether you or I like it, is very rare in this day and age since most of the time we swipe our own cards for some 16 year old kid working as a cashier to pick up a few bucks even looks at the signature for amounts under $200. See it every day of the week and twice on Sunday in supermarkets. Now that's truly hassle free; unless your card has been cloned and you get nailed with fraudulent charges I remember reading here of a British visitor to the USA who was absolutely shocked that in many cases no signatures were required and almost never checked on his credit card transactions and that the only place his pin worked was at Walmart! We'll just have to wait and see just how this thing finally shakes out but as I said, it is becoming evident that the USA will be a chip and signature country no matter what. The only question is how many places will use the pin on chip and pin primary cards. I would suggest it will be less than 30%.
So far I haven't seen any places simply disable PIN support altogether, but those were all manned. Restaurants will probably disable PIN support at some point to continue to take cards away from customers as well (BTW I still need to try the DC card at a restaurant to see if this is already the case or if it'll be rejected/made to walk to the back). Kiosks that don't already support debit cards will also likely not support PIN. I have no idea how common the latter is though.

Originally Posted by AllieKat View Post
P.S. I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but chip and signature is sufficient to eliminate almost all card present fraud. I just hate it because it's a hassle, PIN is so much easier to use. In fact, EMV in the US will have the nice side effect of further reducing card present fraud on cards issued in OTHER countries, as stolen track data is often used in the US.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0LZ0GC20150303

Credit card companies have set an October deadline for the switch to chip-enabled cards, which come with embedded computer chips that make them far more difficult to clone. Counterfeit cards, however, account for only about 37 percent of credit card fraud, and the new technology will be nearly as vulnerable to other kinds of hacking and cyber attacks as current swipe-card systems, security experts say.
Could just be bad reporting, but meh.

Originally Posted by Majuki View Post
A move to EMV chip-and-signature alone will not stop opportunistic card use if the legitimate card is stolen and used in a card present transaction. Since the vast majority of retailers don't compare signatures in the US there is still a lot a thief could get away with. As I've said before, perhaps the liability shift will cause a renewed interest in checking signatures.
The liability shift is such that as long as an EMV terminal is used the issuer still has liability. I don't think it'll affect retailers' behavior all that much (as in, they still won't check signatures). Retailers in other countries do additional stuff on top of signature checking precisely because signature is no longer common or expected.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 8:42 am
  #10029  
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I had a $300 purchase yesterday, where the clerk seemed not to care about the signature much at all, yet I understand even the smallest chip + sig transactions in Europe are cause to all but hire a handwriting expert?

After that, I did my first non-WM chip + sig transaction in the States ($7 with no cvm waiver, slip printed). I must disagree with JJ in that I'm not a fan of swiping at all, preferring either chip or contactless. Some POS'es are finicky requiring multiple swipes.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 8:48 am
  #10030  
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger View Post
I had a $300 purchase yesterday, where the clerk seemed not to care about the signature much at all, yet I understand even the smallest chip + sig transactions in Europe are cause to all but hire a handwriting expert?

After that, I did my first non-WM chip + sig transaction in the States ($7 with no cvm waiver, slip printed). I must disagree with JJ in that I'm not a fan of swiping at all, preferring either chip or contactless. Some POS'es are finicky requiring multiple swipes.
My CSP never works when I swipe it at the vending machines at work (probably because of the metal card), which is why I switched to using Apple Pay there.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 8:57 am
  #10031  
 
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I got an email from Target saying their on track for 2015 in turning chip readers on. The question is when?
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Old Mar 6, 15, 9:04 am
  #10032  
 
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger View Post
I had a $300 purchase yesterday, where the clerk seemed not to care about the signature much at all, yet I understand even the smallest chip + sig transactions in Europe are cause to all but hire a handwriting expert?
Not always. When I checked out of my hotel this morning and paid the 375Euro bill with my Chip & Sig card they didn't even ask me to sign the slip. It's happened several times actually, it's like people just assume that Chip = Pin and you don't have to sign.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 9:04 am
  #10033  
 
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger View Post
I had a $300 purchase yesterday, where the clerk seemed not to care about the signature much at all, yet I understand even the smallest chip + sig transactions in Europe are cause to all but hire a handwriting expert?

After that, I did my first non-WM chip + sig transaction in the States ($7 with no cvm waiver, slip printed). I must disagree with JJ in that I'm not a fan of swiping at all, preferring either chip or contactless. Some POS'es are finicky requiring multiple swipes.
Just to be clear, my personal preference gun to my head would be chip and pin. I only said that the most hassle free is what we have today in the USA from the stand point of time; you swipe the card, no signature is required, a receipt is printed and you're done (in some cases say at many fast food joints you only get a receipt for the cc purchase if you specifically request it; often the clerks say do you need the receipt). Is this wise? Probably not although as we have discussed and I think most agree, signatures as a security measure are next to useless but a vestige of a long past era when with your signature you were agreeing to the terms and conditions of the sale (the original purpose of signatures).
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Old Mar 6, 15, 9:05 am
  #10034  
 
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Originally Posted by 7Lowe View Post
Not always. When I checked out of my hotel this morning and paid the 375Euro bill with my Chip & Sig card they didn't even ask me to sign the slip. It's happened several times actually, it's like people just assume that Chip = Pin and you don't have to sign.
My guess, just a guess, is you signed something when you checked in.
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Old Mar 6, 15, 9:12 am
  #10035  
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I was kinda hoping that Visa US would finally admit that signatures are useless and recommend that No CVM Required be at the top of the CVM list. I mean if the AI algorithms that banks have are supposedly good enough that the US doesn't need PIN then it shouldn't be a problem, right?
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