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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

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Old Jan 15, 16, 11:38 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: philemer
Wiki Link
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old Mar 5, 15, 1:39 pm
  #10006  
 
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Originally Posted by uds0 View Post
Ok, I recently got a replacement for my CSP (haven't used) and I just noticed it's CMV list may have changed to now include PIN support:

Chase Ink Business Plus (and prior Chase Sapphire Preferred)
Visa 1 ONline PIN - unattended cash Fail cardholder verification if this CVM is unsuccessful
2 Signature (paper) Apply succeeding CV rule if this rule is unsuccessful
3 No CVM Required Fail cardholder verification if this CVM is unsuccessful

Chase Sapphire Preferred (received mid January 2015)
Visa 1 ONline PIN - unattended cash Apply succeeding CV rule if this rule is unsuccessful
2 Signature (paper) Fail cardholder verification if this CVM is unsuccessful
3 ONline PIN Apply succeeding CV rule if this rule is unsuccessful
4 OFFline (ICC verified) PIN Apply succeeding CV rule if this rule is unsuccessful
5 OFFline (ICC verified) Plaintext PIN Apply succeeding CV rule if this rule is unsuccessful
6 No CVM Required - Always Fail cardholder verification if this CVM is unsuccessful

Since I sent the CSP cards back because they're, being metal, tough to destroy (closed account due to AF charge and 2nd fraud issue despite very low usage), can someone PLEASE verify that this updated CVM list is correct.

Perhaps the reps either have not been informed or they can't tell whether a customer has the new PIN version and thus are being conservative?

I just called Chase Business Plus rep and she repeatedly stressed that NO Chase card has PIN support beyond ATM cash advance and has no info on when that support might be added. Perhaps their software has the PIN support turned off and the pin is not set on the card? I got the strong impression that their software design is screwed up by having a pin always trigger cash advance treatment in their software and they are now trying to sort that out.

3/5/15 UPDATE: Since this has exactly the same CVM as my Barclay Arrival+, I may have had a technical (or fat finger) issue with my card reader that the Barclay Arrival+ data was displayed because the data wasn't refreshed when I replaced the Barclaycard Arrival+ card with the CSP card in the reader and pressed the buttons to reread the CSP card. PLEASE, anyone with a very recent Arrival+ report their CVM list. Sorry for the possible goof up on my part.
Wanted to assure that this info is visible as of today since I just noticed that the 2 cards had exactly the same CVM list in my spreadsheet.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 2:50 pm
  #10007  
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I tried one of my chip cards at Kohls yesterday in KY. I asked the lady if their chip reader worked and she gave me a deer-in-the-headlights look. I then just tried it and the lady said "no sir, you swipe on the side". My local target still doesn't accept chip cards either.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 3:53 pm
  #10008  
 
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Originally Posted by United747 View Post
I tried one of my chip cards at Kohls yesterday in KY. I asked the lady if their chip reader worked and she gave me a deer-in-the-headlights look. I then just tried it and the lady said "no sir, you swipe on the side". My local target still doesn't accept chip cards either.
No major chain in the US accepts chip cards except for Walmart which half-accepts them. This will not be changing anytime soon, either.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 4:19 pm
  #10009  
 
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The reality is that the attempt to impose chip and pin in the USA, as of now, is a failure. How much it will move in the next few months before the deadline is problematic. However, and I've said this before, my concern is not whether the merchants accept chip and pin or chip and signature or even just continue to accept swipe and maybe sign. The problem and the genesis of this over 10,000 message thread has and should be whether our cards will be accepted everywhere. We do maintain zero liability and even if chip and pin had succeeded the way many here wanted, all it would mean is the counterfeiting of cards at pos terminals would have lessened; the result would have been probably a shift to much more online fraud. Apparently, if visa and the other networks commitments come to fruition, there will be far far fewe problems with using American cards either at personneled or unpersonneled merchants and kiosks throughout the rest of the world. That should be the issue and not the constant whining, no offense meant to anybody, about Walmart is not enforcing the security and so many merchants are not rushing down to implement emv or that restaurants will not be getting the mobile terminals to do chip and pin transactions. Sure, they might be preferable and increase security a tad but to me, that remains a non issue.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 4:21 pm
  #10010  
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So curiosity got the best of me and I ordered one of those Barclay readers. If this one gives a similar experience to what was posted before for chip and signature cards it might be useful for those who already have such a reader (not sure I'd recommend specifically buying one since a normal USB smartcard reader + cardpeek would give you a lot more definitive info) to determine whether offline PIN is in the CVM list. I just wish shipping wasn't more expensive than the actual reader.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 4:35 pm
  #10011  
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
The reality is that the attempt to impose chip and pin in the USA, as of now, is a failure. How much it will move in the next few months before the deadline is problematic. However, and I've said this before, my concern is not whether the merchants accept chip and pin or chip and signature or even just continue to accept swipe and maybe sign. The problem and the genesis of this over 10,000 message thread has and should be whether our cards will be accepted everywhere. We do maintain zero liability and even if chip and pin had succeeded the way many here wanted, all it would mean is the counterfeiting of cards at pos terminals would have lessened; the result would have been probably a shift to much more online fraud. Apparently, if visa and the other networks commitments come to fruition, there will be far far fewe problems with using American cards either at personneled or unpersonneled merchants and kiosks throughout the rest of the world. That should be the issue and not the constant whining, no offense meant to anybody, about Walmart is not enforcing the security and so many merchants are not rushing down to implement emv or that restaurants will not be getting the mobile terminals to do chip and pin transactions. Sure, they might be preferable and increase security a tad but to me, that remains a non issue.
Meh, I've pretty much given up on fighting for PIN preferred really. For the vast majority of travelers PIN backup is more than enough, and even if there's no PIN backup it's probably still fine. You may have to wait in the long manned line instead of being able to use kiosks though, for better or worse.

The real problem now is that US banks pretty much screwed themselves over on contactless/Apple Pay acceptance with chip and signature. A lot of people are simply not going to bother using it because it doesn't add enough to convenience. There will also be a lot fewer places that will accept it than people expect, with restaurants still taking cards to the back and a fair number of smaller businesses not giving customers access and/or simply not knowing how to accept contactless. I bet in a couple of years Tim Cook stops talking about Apple Pay in the US and only mentions its growth OUS (they're not going to admit that its growth hasn't met expectations because that's akin to admitting failure).

Of course I've been wrong a lot so we'll see. Maybe merchant training does get better and Apple Pay still has double digit growth rates five years from now. And maybe the card taking at restaurants ultimately doesn't matter because we just pay with Apple Pay/Google Wallet in the restaurant's app instead.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 5:11 pm
  #10012  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
Re: restaurants: "I think people are just going to remain non-compliant. I think EMV is likely to be passed by mobile payments in some sectors, and I think restaurants is one of them." ...

IMO whoever comes up with a viable EMV terminal that integrates with existing restaurant POSes and does not require the restaurant to change anything (e.g. chip and signature with no PIN support so cards can still be taken from tables) will own the market. I don't think table payments the way Europe does them are really all that viable in the US unfortunately.
Canada seems to have managed this just fine, despite having a tip-centric restaurant culture just like the US does, including table payments using wireless terminals at many establishments. The one real likely change is that IHOP/Steak n Shake/Cracker Barrel style pay-at-cashier may make a bit of a comeback at casual dining places that don't want to spring for a few terminals to float around tables as needed.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 5:17 pm
  #10013  
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Originally Posted by lordsutch View Post
Canada seems to have managed this just fine, despite having a tip-centric restaurant culture just like the US does, including table payments using wireless terminals at many establishments. The one real likely change is that IHOP/Steak n Shake/Cracker Barrel style pay-at-cashier may make a bit of a comeback at casual dining places that don't want to spring for a few terminals to float around tables as needed.
Canada also went straight to chip and PIN, unlike in the US where PIN preferring will likely never be adopted on a widespread basis. In a lot of places here there will be no real issues with continuing to take cards away from the table. If Visa one day decides that foreign card acceptance issues at US restaurants are a problem and bans PIN CVM support for restaurant terminals (instead of, say, punishing restaurants who reject PIN preferring cards altogether) then there will be no problems at restaurants at all.

This is mostly moot though because it looks like a lot of places are simply not going to bother with EMV anyway.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 5:52 pm
  #10014  
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Originally Posted by AllieKat View Post
No major chain in the US accepts chip cards except for Walmart which half-accepts them. This will not be changing anytime soon, either.
I understand that, but it just bothers me a little that they have the infrastructure but can't accept the cards. I know it really shouldn't bother me, but it does!
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Old Mar 5, 15, 6:23 pm
  #10015  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
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General EMV/contactless question, I have a dual interface EMV plus contactless American Express. I tried to tap and pay at a Peet's Coffee shop and it didn't work. I tapped, the reader seemed to acknowledge the tap, but then did not process the transaction. The cashier had to swipe the card. My question is, to use dual emv plus contactless card does the store have to have EMV enabled (Peet's does not have EMV turned on)? I had this same experience about 2 weeks back at a different Peet's location so I don't believe it is a reader issue. Also, about 6 months ago I did use Peet's contactless reader to do a google wallet transaction so I know tap and pay works (or at least has in the past). Although I can't remember I believe I used this American Express card this to tap and pay years ago (back when it was just contactless and not EMV). Any ideas?
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Old Mar 5, 15, 6:28 pm
  #10016  
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Originally Posted by zsssd View Post
General EMV/contactless question, I have a dual interface EMV plus contactless American Express. I tried to tap and pay at a Peet's Coffee shop and it didn't work. I tapped, the reader seemed to acknowledge the tap, but then did not process the transaction. The cashier had to swipe the card. My question is, to use dual emv plus contactless card does the store have to have EMV enabled (Peet's does not have EMV turned on)? I had this same experience about 2 weeks back at a different Peet's location so I don't believe it is a reader issue. Also, about 6 months ago I did use Peet's contactless reader to do a google wallet transaction so I know tap and pay works (or at least has in the past). Although I can't remember I believe I used this American Express card this to tap and pay years ago (back when it was just contactless and not EMV). Any ideas?
I don't think anyone knows why actually. Walgreens had/has the same problem with AmEx contactless too (though Apple Pay works fine).
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Old Mar 5, 15, 6:48 pm
  #10017  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
I don't think anyone knows why actually. Walgreens had/has the same problem with AmEx contactless too (though Apple Pay works fine).
Wondering if the Amex issue has something to do with the EMV contactless spec. I know all Amex contactless products are supposed to work on the London Underground while many US issued contactless Visa and Mastercards will not work.

Wish I could see the markers for the differences in the Cardpeek scans.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 8:16 pm
  #10018  
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I think it is a flawed logic to assume that moving to a secure chip and pin at POS will lead to more on-line fraud; so let us live with the current insecure system. The liability may rest with Visa, but the enormous work for card users to get new cards and notify auto billing companies is not insignificant. Secondly, the rest of the world has moved to Chip and Pin so it is the US that needs to adapt, not visa trying to arm twist Europeans to change their system. The only reason I got myself a pure chip and pin is because I have had many embarrassing situations where my chip and signature cards or magnetic swipe cards did not work overseas. I would prefer to have a more secure chip and pin in the US, but it is not a deal breaker. But should there be another fraud case at POS, I am going to blog heavily and criticize the companies and name the CEO's and shame them. They have time until October. Most shameful will be if Target joins this crowd. There is no reason, Target can't go for Chip and Pin for its own Target store card. This has nothing to do with Visa or Master Card.

Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
The reality is that the attempt to impose chip and pin in the USA, as of now, is a failure. How much it will move in the next few months before the deadline is problematic. However, and I've said this before, my concern is not whether the merchants accept chip and pin or chip and signature or even just continue to accept swipe and maybe sign. The problem and the genesis of this over 10,000 message thread has and should be whether our cards will be accepted everywhere. We do maintain zero liability and even if chip and pin had succeeded the way many here wanted, all it would mean is the counterfeiting of cards at pos terminals would have lessened; the result would have been probably a shift to much more online fraud. Apparently, if visa and the other networks commitments come to fruition, there will be far far fewe problems with using American cards either at personneled or unpersonneled merchants and kiosks throughout the rest of the world. That should be the issue and not the constant whining, no offense meant to anybody, about Walmart is not enforcing the security and so many merchants are not rushing down to implement emv or that restaurants will not be getting the mobile terminals to do chip and pin transactions. Sure, they might be preferable and increase security a tad but to me, that remains a non issue.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 9:04 pm
  #10019  
 
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Originally Posted by upnorth View Post
I think it is a flawed logic to assume that moving to a secure chip and pin at POS will lead to more on-line fraud; so let us live with the current insecure system. The liability may rest with Visa, but the enormous work for card users to get new cards and notify auto billing companies is not insignificant. Secondly, the rest of the world has moved to Chip and Pin so it is the US that needs to adapt, not visa trying to arm twist Europeans to change their system. The only reason I got myself a pure chip and pin is because I have had many embarrassing situations where my chip and signature cards or magnetic swipe cards did not work overseas. I would prefer to have a more secure chip and pin in the US, but it is not a deal breaker. But should there be another fraud case at POS, I am going to blog heavily and criticize the companies and name the CEO's and shame them. They have time until October. Most shameful will be if Target joins this crowd. There is no reason, Target can't go for Chip and Pin for its own Target store card. This has nothing to do with Visa or Master Card.
Of course I didn't mean to imply that the increase in online fraud that will almost certainly happen following the introduction of emv compliant cards is a good reason not to go for chip and pin. But let's face it. These hackers are good at what they do and emv will cut down on pos card is present fraud without question and pin will cut down on the use of stolen cards at pos terminals (although that is hardly a big issue). It will, at least for now, make it harder to counterfeit cards although if they put their mind to it, I have few doubts that these vermin will not be able to clone emv cards but it is not necessary for them to do so now as cloning magnetic strip cards is so easy. As I said, what worries me more is that if we went to chip and pin, there may be a greater effort on the part of the networks to hold consumers liable for fraud. This is what happened in the UK for a while early in their emv migration when some cards were indeed compromised and at first the banks refused to reimburse customers until they realized indeed the customers did nothing wrong. Today we have a system which holds us not liable for fraud and while I agree it is a pain to notify merchants when a card is cancelled because of fraud and if you're travelling it may be hard to get a replacement, you have to do the same thing when the expiration date changes, don't you? And even if we were completely emv compliant here, the basic data stolen from Target would be just as vulnerable and the stolen information would probably be more likely to be used for online fraud.

Face it. Credit card fraud is modern day back robbery without guns. As Willie Sutton is claimed to have said (it has been refuted btw) in the 1950's when asked why he robbed banks, he answered "Because that's where the money is." Why do hackers break into data bases and steal credit card numbers? Because that is where the money is, of course.

I'm sorry if you disagree and I am not trying to start a verbal spat with you or anybody and you are welcome to disagree. I just don't lay awake at night worrying about whether my credit card will be hacked. It most assuredly will at some point again. To me, chip and pin provides really no greater protection in that regard from chip and signature. If I had my preference, I would probably prefer chip and pin but I just don't feel that issue is the most important part of this. I worry most about my ability to use the card.

But please. Don't shoot the messenger.
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Old Mar 5, 15, 9:10 pm
  #10020  
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UNFCU application experience

Yesterday, I filled out their online "loan" form for a 10K Azure card, indicating a decent income, but not attaching any documents. The instructions were a bit confusing/contradictory on the matter, with no green check mark for that "requirement", but a disclaimer that documentation may be requested (later) for approval. This evening, not having heard anything, I went to attach the paperwork for assets and 2014 taxable income -- lo and behold, the application status read APPROVED: 10K! I suppose I can expect a confirming message later?
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