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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

Old Sep 20, 2013, 11:40 am
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Last edit by: philemer
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-card-programs/1739359-2016-onward-usa-emv-cards-availability-q-chip-pin-signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

Old Feb 8, 2014, 4:30 pm
  #3046  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Originally Posted by blue2000
Again, I'm only talking about the inner core of the city--I definitely agree with distance-based pricing for the commuter rail
[ot]

Mmm...I don't think I could agree entirely on that. Many subway systems end up expanding out farther and farther out where it starts to become blurred between commuter rail. For example, the Red Line you have in your city, it's $2.00 to go from end-to-end from Braintree to Alewife which is about 20 miles apart, whereas it's also the same $2.00 to go from South Station to Park St. which is only two stations away from each other. And you guys recently had a fare increase (and with absolutely zero guarantee that it'll be the end of it).

I'm surprised no one in Boston said why a person going only 2 stations should be forced to pay the same fare hike to $2.00 when someone in Braintree going all the way to Alewife gets a better deal because they can cover 20 miles for only $2.00. In a way, it's like people who ride shorter distances subsidize those who have longer trips.

Sooner or later, more fare hikes will bound to happen and there will be a limit to how much people will be willing to pay for a ride regardless of distance. IMO, $3.00 flat rate is the upper limit they can reach because by then, people will not expect to pay the same price whether they travel a mile or 10 miles. [/ot]

Last edited by kebosabi; Feb 8, 2014 at 4:42 pm
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Old Feb 8, 2014, 8:51 pm
  #3047  
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
 
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
[ot]
I'm surprised no one in Boston said why a person going only 2 stations should be forced to pay the same fare hike to $2.00 when someone in Braintree going all the way to Alewife gets a better deal because they can cover 20 miles for only $2.00. In a way, it's like people who ride shorter distances subsidize those who have longer trips.

Sooner or later, more fare hikes will bound to happen and there will be a limit to how much people will be willing to pay for a ride regardless of distance. IMO, $3.00 flat rate is the upper limit they can reach because by then, people will not expect to pay the same price whether they travel a mile or 10 miles. [/ot]

Yes, but there is also the hassle and extra time involved with tapping your card twice instead of once, plus you have to keep track of the prices for each different route (tourists can't just say "I think I'll use 6 rides" and load $12). How often does anyone ride directly from Braintree to Alewife? It's got to be a very small percentage of total riders. If the overwhelming majority of rides are within a reasonable percent higher or lower than the mean distance, then it's simpler to just equalize everything. A small percentage of riders get subsidized, a small percentage get ripped off, and everyone else saves a lot of trouble.

Looking at this in the context of EMV, does anyone know if the EMV could "remember" where you tagged onto the system, so that when you tag out it knows how much to charge? If there is a flat charge then using EMV at the point of entry (and eliminating the proprietary transit cards altogether) would be feasible, but can it be done with distance-based pricing?
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Old Feb 8, 2014, 10:11 pm
  #3048  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Got my chipped Wells Fargo CC in the mail today after calling monday thanks to this thread ^. Heres to hoping they are competent enough to actually mail me my PIN. Even with the forex fee, it makes a nice backup to my Amex Chip + Sig.
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Old Feb 8, 2014, 10:14 pm
  #3049  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Originally Posted by cbn42
Looking at this in the context of EMV, does anyone know if the EMV could "remember" where you tagged onto the system, so that when you tag out it knows how much to charge? If there is a flat charge then using EMV at the point of entry (and eliminating the proprietary transit cards altogether) would be feasible, but can it be done with distance-based pricing?
It is feasible. There's nothing in the EMV standard that would allow the card to keep track of this though. So from a systems integration point of view, the transportation system's systems would have to keep track of where you tapped in and where you tapped out. And in order to do that, all the "tap terminals" would have to be online. That would be a major undertaking since most systems, like the bay area's clipper card work as stored value cards with offline authentication. Though these offline systems could be integrated easily with existing NFC smartphones (though only with android smartphones on android 4.4).
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Old Feb 8, 2014, 11:51 pm
  #3050  
 
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Originally Posted by cbn42
Yes, but there is also the hassle and extra time involved with tapping your card twice instead of once, plus you have to keep track of the prices for each different route
I highly doubt riding the London Underground is that much of a hassle. You've been to London, right? You just fill up your Oyster Card, you tap in when you enter, and tap out when you exit. A lot of Americans visit London each year and no one is utterly confused about this system.

And as open contactless payments become the norm, which London is currently moving to, you wouldn't even need your Oyster Card in the near future.

You can just tap in your favorite credit card that has contactless capability, tap out with the same credit card, and the fare gets charged to your credit card.

That ideally would be the dream for me: the ability to use my $0 FTF credit card with EMV and contactless capability, to tap-n-go for all transit everywhere. No more TAP card for Los Angeles, NY MetroCard for NYC, no more OV Chipkaart for Amsterdam, Suica/PASMO for Tokyo, etc. etc.

Just one credit card with contactless capability for all transit all over the world.

Originally Posted by cbn42
Looking at this in the context of EMV, does anyone know if the EMV could "remember" where you tagged onto the system, so that when you tag out it knows how much to charge? If there is a flat charge then using EMV at the point of entry (and eliminating the proprietary transit cards altogether) would be feasible, but can it be done with distance-based pricing?
Absolutely! London is actually moving to that system soon:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...mes/19976.aspx

Originally Posted by tfl
Contactless payment cards are making life easier. You can already use them to pay for things wherever you see the contactless symbol - and now you can use them on buses as well.

It is similar to using an Oyster card, only using your contactless credit, debit or charge card instead. That means no topping up or buying credit in advance - just touch in and go.

Find out more about using contactless payment cards on buses (Youtube link)

In early 2014, you'll be able to use your contactless payment card on:

Tube
Docklands Light Railway (DLR)
Trams
London Overground
You'll also be able to check your journey history online, which means you can see where you've been and how much it cost. And because everything will be managed by your card issuer, it means the whole system is secure. There's no need for PIN numbers, and at no point will we have access to your account.

When the new system is in place, you'll be able to use your contactless payment card for all pay as you go journeys. The card readers at ticket gates will look the same, but you'll be able to touch in using either your contactless payment card or an Oyster card.

Once the system has been rolled out across all our services, fares will be capped for the day you travel like with Oyster.
I'm sure the reclusive46 (resident of the UK) can chime in on how it's going on right now.


And there's also SLC which is also using that system in the US:
http://www.rideuta.com/mc/?page=Ridi...rFare-EFC-FAQs

Originally Posted by UTA
What type of contactless cards can be used?

There are three types of contactless cards that may be accepted:
Bank-issued contactless credit/debit cards
Certain ID cards issued by organizations such as schools, employers, and ski resorts
UTA contactless transit passes

[snip]

Do I have to tap on and tap off?
Yes. Be sure to tap on when boarding and tap off when exiting to complete your trip. It is important to remember to tap off with the same card when exiting in order to close out the trip, as failure to tap off would leave the trip incomplete. The only exception to the tap off requirement is when you transfer from a TRAX vehicle to another TRAX vehicle. Other than TRAX-to-TRAX transfers, you are always required to tap off when exiting.
Failure to tap off voids any transfer credits that you would normally receive.
If you tap on within the free fare zone and fail to tap off when exiting within the free fare zone, you will be charged the full single adult cash fare
If you fail to tap off on FrontRunner, you will be charged the maximum fare, instead for only the distance that you have traveled.
It specifically says "you can use contactless bank credit and debit cards" and it mentions that you need to tap off so that the proper fare can be charged. If a SLC can do it (and they're not even the biggest transit agency in the US), I doubt it can't be done elsewhere.

Furthermore, as stated several posts back, the 2014 Smart Card Alliance is taking place in SLC. And the two keynote speakers on EMV and contactless payments are the transit agencies in NY and Washington DC. NY uses distance base fares for LIRR. DC Metro uses distance based fares on their subway. And SLC is already using contactless bank cards for their own variable pricing system. It wouldn't surprise me that NY and Washington DC are taking a close look at what SLC has done and has a big interest to see that implemented in their own system as well.


As an optimistic millennial, I hope that by this decade is out, we'll all have in our wallets, an EMV chipped, contactless capable, no FTF credit card, or NFC enabled smartphone that we can use to ride transit in any city in the world. No more "ok, I'm going to be in London next week, don't forget my Oyster Card...hmm, how much do I have in there? Wait after London, I'm going to Tokyo so I need my Suica too; how much is it in there again...?" Here's hoping to that future!

Last edited by kebosabi; Feb 9, 2014 at 12:18 am
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 12:26 am
  #3051  
 
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Originally Posted by WhatWhatTech
Though these offline systems could be integrated easily with existing NFC smartphones (though only with android smartphones on android 4.4).
OTOH, that is also reliant whether they'll be wireless reception coverage underground as well. And there's also the issue that a smartphone becomes a brick when the battery dies out.

I imagine that in the future, offline systems will eventually will have to become upgraded to online systems, especially if open payment systems via contactless debit and credit cards are to become the defacto standard for mass transit.

Then again, the US may end up taking the wrong approach again while the rest of the world aligns themselves to a single global standard.
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 12:34 am
  #3052  
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
I highly doubt riding the London Underground is that much of a hassle. You've been to London, right? You just fill up your Oyster Card, you tap in when you enter, and tap out when you exit. A lot of Americans visit London each year and no one is utterly confused about this system.
I wouldn't say "utterly confused", but it is more confusing than a flat-rate system. In New York, for example, you can plan the day's itinerary and say "I'm going to be riding the subway three times" and load $7.50 to your card. In London you would have to look at the zone map to determine where each trip starts and ends, then look at the chart to see how much each one will cost, and then add them up. That's a lot of extra steps, and most people (including myself) don't bother. They just load some arbitrary amount and refill as necessary. As a consequence, they don't know exactly how much they are spending each trip, and they may lose residual value at the end.

London, however, can get away with this because they are a transit-oriented city and the underground isn't exactly hurting for riders. If a city like LA, which is desperately trying to get people out of their cars, tried this, it would probably scare many people away, especially those who haven't been to Europe.

Originally Posted by kebosabi

Absolutely! London is actually moving to that system soon:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...mes/19976.aspx
Interesting, do you know how exactly it works? As WhatWhatTech said, it would probably require each terminal to be online, since the machines can't write to the chip.


Originally Posted by kebosabi
As an optimistic millennial, I hope that by this decade is out, we'll all have in our wallets, an EMV chipped, contactless capable, no FTF credit card, or NFC enabled smartphone that we can use to ride transit in any city in the world. No more "ok, I'm going to be in London next week, don't forget my Oyster Card...hmm, how much do I have in there? Wait after London, I'm going to Tokyo so I need my Suica too; how much is it in there again...?" Here's hoping to that future!
That would be great. First world problem for the few of us who have the luxury of visiting London and Tokyo in one trip, but hey, why not
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 1:02 am
  #3053  
 
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Originally Posted by cbn42
\They just load some arbitrary amount and refill as necessary. As a consequence, they don't know exactly how much they are spending each trip, and they may lose residual value at the end.
In my view, I don't see that to be much different from filling up the gas on a car. You really don't know how much gas you're going to need, therefore you just fill up some arbitrary amount of gas, say like $25 worth of gas (or fill it up full, whichever you prefer). And you drive the car until the gas gets low, and you fill it up with some arbitrary amount of gas again.

With an open payments contactless card system, however, it removes all of this from the picture. You don't need any guesswork because you won't need to "fill up gas/fill up the propietary transit card" with guesstimate amount. All it does will automatically deduct the value straight from your credit line or bank account and you never pay more or less, or be left with some remainder.

Originally Posted by cbn42
If a city like LA, which is desperately trying to get people out of their cars, tried this, it would probably scare many people away, especially those who haven't been to Europe.
LA also has Metrolink which runs on distance based fares as well. You could say that's more of a commuter rail system, but the way our Metro system is expanding beyond it's outreach (i.e. the Metro Blue Line for example, goes to the City of Long Beach, the Metro Gold Line is heading towards the San Bernardino County line, LA Metro even runs buses to Anaheim for Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm which is in Orange County), the convention of "local" and "commuter" transit is becoming blurred.

IMO, it's kinda doubtful that a flat rate system (currentl $1.50, but soon to be raised to $2.25, again with no certainty that it'll be the end of it) can ever be sustained where going to the neighborhood supermarket will cost the same price as going from Malibu to Ontario.

There's also a large population here in LA that are of Asian descent, so I doubt they'll have any problems adjusting to distance or zone based pricing as being used over in Asia as well.

Originally Posted by cbn42
That would be great. First world problem for the few of us who have the luxury of visiting London and Tokyo in one trip, but hey, why not
Well you know that was sarcasm

But closer to home, a standardized open payments system will alleviate the headaches of proprietary transit cards and passes all over the place.

One can just use the contactless credit card to tap and go from NYMTA, Amtrak Acela, and DC Metro with a single payment card instead of having to buy a NYMTA card, a separate ticket for Amtrak, and a SmarTrip card.

For me, this would be ideal here in CA too. One contactless credit card that enables me to ride the Santa Monica Big Blue Bus, the Culver City Bus, LA Metro, Metrolink, Amtrak Pacific Surfliner, OCTA, Coaster, BART, SF MUNI, Caltrain, San Jose VTA, and San Diego MTS, instead of needing a separate pass or transit card for all of them.

To me, the lack of standardization for public transit in the US is one of the key reasons why I think public transit sucks here in the US. It's like everyone is using their own proprietary currency that's incompatible with one another. Whereas in places like say, Japan or The Netherlands, they have a standardized system where one transit card can be used whether you're in Tokyo or Osaka, in Amsterdam or Rotterdam.

That's why I'm hopeful that when EMV takes off, contactless cards will too, and the end result will be adoption of open payments systems across all transit agencies across the US, which in effect, will create a standardized payments system where the same contactless credit or debit card can be used to ride any transit in CA as well as any other public transit in any city or state in the US, as well the world.

Last edited by kebosabi; Feb 9, 2014 at 1:38 am
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 1:45 am
  #3054  
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
LA also has Metrolink which runs on distance based fares as well. You could say that's more of a commuter rail system, but the way our Metro system is expanding beyond it's outreach (i.e. the Metro Blue Line for example, goes to the City of Long Beach, the Metro Gold Line is heading towards the San Bernardino County line, LA Metro even runs buses to Anaheim for Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm which is in Orange County), the convention of "local" and "commuter" transit is becoming blurred.
Metrolink is not a system that people use to "get around". Most people use it to get to work and back. They only need to look up one fare for their route. This can work for a commuter rail system where people ride the same route every day, but not for a local system that people use to get different places. I agree that the LA Metro is overextending itself and would be smarter to build up a comprehensive network in the city center first, but that is a political debate for another thread.

Originally Posted by kebosabi
IMO, it's kinda doubtful that a flat rate system (currentl $1.50, but soon to be raised to $2.25, again with no certainty that it'll be the end of it) can ever be sustained where going to the neighborhood supermarket will cost the same price as going from Malibu to Ontario.
There are also daily and monthly passes. Anyone using the train to go to the supermarket would likely have a pass.

I particularly like this feature on Oyster. Once you hit the daily maximum, you are no longer charged. I don't know what that amount is or if I ever hit it, but hopefully I can trust TfL here. :P

Originally Posted by kebosabi
One can just use the contactless credit card to tap and go from NYMTA, Amtrak Acela, and DC Metro with a single payment card instead of having to buy a NYMTA card, a separate ticket for Amtrak, and a SmarTrip card.
There has been some progress in this area. DC's SmarTrip and MD's Charm Card are interoperable. Clipper is used on I think 6 or 8 different agencies in the Bay Area, and TAP is used on some city buses in addition to MTA. There is more work to do, but we are seeing some baby steps.

I think most of these contactless cards use Cubic Transportation, so standardizing them should be relatively easy if the agencies can agree. If Cubic were smart, they'd develop their own branded card that can be used on any agency they contract with. That would get them a lot more contracts.
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 1:58 am
  #3055  
 
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Originally Posted by cbn42
If Cubic were smart, they'd develop their own branded card that can be used on any agency they contract with. That would get them a lot more contracts.
Cubic is a defense contractor based in San Diego. Their main business is sucking off American taxpayer dollars through multi-billion dollars worth of DoD contracts to ward us off from evil tewwowists.

Transit payment systems is more like a side job for them. I actually do not know why they are in this business. Egads, maybe they we're right! By being in the transportation systems business, they can track the movements of Americans to aid us in the war against tew-wah!
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 3:31 am
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
That ideally would be the dream for me: the ability to use my $0 FTF credit card with EMV and contactless capability, to tap-n-go for all transit everywhere. No more TAP card for Los Angeles, NY MetroCard for NYC, no more OV Chipkaart for Amsterdam, Suica/PASMO for Tokyo, etc. etc.
This reminds me of a humorous hack people at MIT were doing awhile back, which involved dissolving the plastic of a CharlieCard in acetone, and then removing the back of an iPhone and sticking the remains (chip and antenna) inside the phone so you can tap with your phone. Obviously, it isn't interacting with the phone, so it's a just a crude hack, but it was funny because it reminded me of a way to not have to carry physical cards around!


Originally Posted by kebosabi
It specifically says "you can use contactless bank credit and debit cards" and it mentions that you need to tap off so that the proper fare can be charged. If a SLC can do it (and they're not even the biggest transit agency in the US), I doubt it can't be done elsewhere.
There shouldn't be any reason for it not to be implemented anywhere from a technical standpoint. Especially where most of the heavy lifting was already done back when systems switched from the old token-based systems to electronic systems. That was a much bigger initiative than simply having to change the type of electronic system (and even less work for places that already have RFID as their core) and also involved a bigger change/learning curve for customers. Regarding SLC--that is actually an easier/more ideal "showcase" city since the system is smaller and, while it is used a lot (I used to go there to ski a lot, and almost moved there once) it isn't as crucial to the city's daily existence as cities in the northeast. If someone had really screwed-up the implementation, it wouldn't affect the city as much as, say, NYC or Boston where so many people live without cars.

One side note that came to mind, since I've overheard it twice in the last week. In other scenarios where places like a work/school cafeteria or something has changed from a proprietary debit card (ie, work/school ID) to credit cards, there's always one person who complains "I don't want all these small charges showing up on my statement". I'm not sure why people care, since that's really the CC company's problem to keep track of all your charges. And as far as worrying about missing fraudulent charges amongst them, it isn't that big a deal to look through, plus that's why I also have notifications enabled for every purchase. But, it just struck me as yet another fear that some people seem to have towards using CCs like this, especially since RFID focuses on small, frequent charges.

Last edited by blue2000; Feb 9, 2014 at 4:31 am
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 8:28 am
  #3057  
 
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
It specifically says "you can use contactless bank credit and debit cards" and it mentions that you need to tap off so that the proper fare can be charged. If a SLC can do it (and they're not even the biggest transit agency in the US), I doubt it can't be done elsewhere.
I've used it a bunch on UTA, our transit agency, and it works great! There were a few bugs during the roll out, principally relating to being charged too little or nothing at all, but they seem to have gotten those sorted.

Only commuter rail has distance-based pricing at the moment, though the entire system is migrating to it. There is a terminal by each door on standard buses. For light rail, commuter rail, and bus rapid transit, terminals are located at station entrances.

UTA Police are charged with fare enforcement. They have handheld devices which indicate whether your card was properly registered prior to boarding, so your card itself becomes proof that the fare was paid.

Though I've never tried it, my understanding is that failure to tap your card against a terminal on exit leads to the maximum distance-based fare being charged (since they cannot know how far you traveled).

The way the charges are processed is interesting. They're not authorized against your card in real-time, but show up a day or so later. They're also un-aggregated. For example, if I ride commuter rail from Provo to SLC and back again, two charges for $6.10 appear on my card statement, one for each leg.

I'd have expected that they'd do the same thing Apple does with iTunes -- aggregate all usage across a period into one charge -- in order to save on merchant processing fees. Perhaps they felt that would be too opaque for customers?
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 8:59 am
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Originally Posted by PhillyInvestor
I'd have expected that they'd do the same thing Apple does with iTunes -- aggregate all usage across a period into one charge -- in order to save on merchant processing fees. Perhaps they felt that would be too opaque for customers?
Interesting, with London travel it actually adds all of the travel to together and charges you, which is actually weird as it means you can have contactless transactions show up online that are above the 20 limit. This probably has something to do with the weekly and daily price caps, so they won't know how much to charge until the end of the day.
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 10:00 am
  #3059  
 
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Originally Posted by PhillyInvestor
Only commuter rail has distance-based pricing at the moment, though the entire system is migrating to it. There is a terminal by each door on standard buses.
I'm anxious to see it implemented in buses. If it happens, I think SLC will become the 1st one in the US to use distance based pricing for buses which could change the game on how fares are collected for buses.

It shouldn't be that difficult to do, Japan has been running distance based fares on buses ever since I could remember and that was way before the contactless cards were the norm. And tapping on and tapping off works fine on buses from Amsterdam to Singapore too.

I've talked about this idea to several people here in LA and it was usually split down two camps: those who balk at the idea that it can't be done and those who say that it shouldn't be that difficult to do. The former tends to be those who are always skeptical and afraid about change and are usually clueless about technology. The latter tends to be those in fields of science, rational thinkers, and incidentally, the well traveled.

Reminds me of this EMV thing all over again.
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Old Feb 9, 2014, 10:14 am
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A thought: The more OT stuff that ends up in this thread, the less useful it is to people that find it from a web search for chip & pin.
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