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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

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Old Jan 15, 16, 11:38 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: philemer
Wiki Link
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old Jan 9, 14, 11:05 pm
  #2596  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Originally Posted by LoneTree View Post
Is the advice on Chase EMV cards (specifically Sapphire) still to enter a dummy PIN if prompted? I know the priority order is Sig, No CVM, than PIN per prior posts, but when i called Chase just now to set a PIN they kept insisting it would never be required. I told the CSR it's sometimes forced but she still insisted that's not possible and said it would go through as a cash advance anyway.

Normally I'd request a new one be sent, but I'm leaving in a few days and don't have time to have it mailed.
Actually, the priority order is:

1. Online PIN (if unattended)
2. Sig
3. No CVM



That's the list taken from a GEMALTO 10-12 CSP.
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Old Jan 9, 14, 11:20 pm
  #2597  
 
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Originally Posted by patrick.barnes View Post
Originally Posted by LoneTree View Post
Is the advice on Chase EMV cards (specifically Sapphire) still to enter a dummy PIN if prompted? I know the priority order is Sig, No CVM, than PIN per prior posts, but when i called Chase just now to set a PIN they kept insisting it would never be required. I told the CSR it's sometimes forced but she still insisted that's not possible and said it would go through as a cash advance anyway.

Normally I'd request a new one be sent, but I'm leaving in a few days and don't have time to have it mailed.
Actually, the priority order is:

1. Online PIN (if unattended)
2. Sig
3. No CVM



That's the list taken from a GEMALTO 10-12 CSP.
Oops. Well now my referencing the CVM list in my latest secure message in order to try to skip over clueless CSRs isn't correct.

So the Online PIN setting is the top priority but only on unattended kiosks? Chase really shouldn't be telling people they'll never need a PIN then.

Do you know what the CVM setup is on Citi's cards? I've seen you mention a few others like Amex, but haven't seen that one.
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Old Jan 10, 14, 10:55 am
  #2598  
 
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The Target breach just got worse:

Target says data breach puts up to 110 million people at risk

Originally Posted by Star Tribune
The company said personal information of 70 million customers exposed, perhaps separate from the 40 million whose financial information already known at risk.
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Old Jan 10, 14, 11:26 am
  #2599  
 
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Originally Posted by patrick.barnes View Post
Actually, the priority order is:

1. Online PIN (if unattended)
2. Sig
3. No CVM



That's the list taken from a GEMALTO 10-12 CSP.
This is very interesting. In case you have other EMV cards would you mind providing us with the CVM lists?
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Old Jan 10, 14, 11:38 am
  #2600  
 
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Originally Posted by patrick.barnes View Post
Actually, the priority order is:

1. Online PIN (if unattended)
2. Sig
3. No CVM



That's the list taken from a GEMALTO 10-12 CSP.
Very interesting indeed. Are these tests on your own or an actual industry source on the web?
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Old Jan 10, 14, 12:08 pm
  #2601  
 
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Data breaches like the one at Target that exposed information for 70 million customers would be pointless for criminals if U.S. banks switched to the secure chipped Smart Card technology common in about 80 other countries.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...y-emv/4406861/

USA Today online front page
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Old Jan 10, 14, 2:15 pm
  #2602  
 
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Originally Posted by richarddd View Post
Data breaches like the one at Target that exposed information for 70 million customers would be pointless for criminals if U.S. banks switched to the secure chipped Smart Card technology common in about 80 other countries.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...y-emv/4406861/

USA Today online front page
The article misses the one point that has been an on=going theme of this very long long thread and for which we still don't have the answer.

EMV is not synonymous with chip and pin. The deadline is for the adoption of emv but what makes everybody so sure it's going to be chip and pin. Some of the banks seem to be very adamant, although it could be a spin, that Americans "prefer" chip and signature. But as we've gone along, with each new introduction of emv cards, chip and signature priority seems to be the preference. By now one would suppose banks would have come over to chip and pin yet as we've argued and argued and argued, there is no chip and pin priority card available to all Americans as of this writing (at least none that we here are aware of). Sure, people point out Diners, UN FCU and even USAA but all are very restricted in just who can join. The rest of the emv inventory, correct me if I'm wrong, are either chip and signature alone or chip and signature priority. So what is it, guys.

By October 2015 will we see a huge roll out of true chip and pin cards i.e. chip and pin priority or has the die been cat here for chip and signature or chip and signature priority. I don't have the answer and I'm sure nobody here has the answer but what are people's feelings. My feelong and of course I could be 100% wrong is that it will be chip and signature or chip and signature priority unless somebody does something drastic and in a way the best bet (although obviously I cannot tell them how to do their thing) would be if the eu passed a reg that all cc transaction had to be chip and pin. That is just about the only thing, at least in my opinion, that will change the directon we seem to be headed as much as it galls many of the members here. Hope I'm wrong but I don't think so.
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Old Jan 10, 14, 2:34 pm
  #2603  
 
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
The article misses the one point that has been an on=going theme of this very long long thread and for which we still don't have the answer.

EMV is not synonymous with chip and pin. The deadline is for the adoption of emv but what makes everybody so sure it's going to be chip and pin. Some of the banks seem to be very adamant, although it could be a spin, that Americans "prefer" chip and signature. But as we've gone along, with each new introduction of emv cards, chip and signature priority seems to be the preference. By now one would suppose banks would have come over to chip and pin yet as we've argued and argued and argued, there is no chip and pin priority card available to all Americans as of this writing (at least none that we here are aware of). Sure, people point out Diners, UN FCU and even USAA but all are very restricted in just who can join. The rest of the emv inventory, correct me if I'm wrong, are either chip and signature alone or chip and signature priority. So what is it, guys.

By October 2015 will we see a huge roll out of true chip and pin cards i.e. chip and pin priority or has the die been cat here for chip and signature or chip and signature priority. I don't have the answer and I'm sure nobody here has the answer but what are people's feelings. My feelong and of course I could be 100% wrong is that it will be chip and signature or chip and signature priority unless somebody does something drastic and in a way the best bet (although obviously I cannot tell them how to do their thing) would be if the eu passed a reg that all cc transaction had to be chip and pin. That is just about the only thing, at least in my opinion, that will change the directon we seem to be headed as much as it galls many of the members here. Hope I'm wrong but I don't think so.
What will be interesting to see is what version Discover use. Also while American Express currently use C&S its also possible they could decide to use C&P as their C&S cards are really just for travel right now. If both of them used C&P I could see a lot of Visa and MC issuers using it as they'll see it works fine.
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Old Jan 10, 14, 2:42 pm
  #2604  
 
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
Some of the banks seem to be very adamant, although it could be a spin, that Americans "prefer" chip and signature.
I don't know on what basis they can make this assertion given that I have yet to encounter a single POS unit in my area that will even accept an EMV transaction. How can Americans prefer any non-existent option?
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Old Jan 10, 14, 2:53 pm
  #2605  
 
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Originally Posted by LoneTree View Post
I don't know on what basis they can make this assertion given that I have yet to encounter a single POS unit in my area that will even accept an EMV transaction. How can Americans prefer any non-existent option?
This has been one of their justifications for going with chip and signature. Actually the word prefer might be wrong. I think as I remember the actual point was American are used to signature transacton and why rock the boat. I doubt extremely if they did a poll to figure ot what people prefer although let me throw a thought out, again I'm thinking out loud and could be all wet and feel free to tell me I am.

The distinguishing feature of the American payments system is literally how many different banks issue plastic be it credit or debit. In the UK, what are there a couple of banks in each country making up the UK (England, Scotland, Northern Ireland while Wales has the English banks I think). Hence having all that many different payment cards is nowhere near as common in the UK as in the US; same holds true pretty much for Canada. I think most settle on one bank and hence what do they have to remember, one pin for the debit card and one pin for the credit card?

Here people might have four or five or more cards. Many of the people here have a whole bunch. As chip and pin cards have been issued, it becomes harder to keep track of pins. I have to save them on my computer encrypted in a way so even if the computer is hacked, people will probably be unable to figure out the pins. Of course, the solution is to constantly change newly issued pins so one has as few pins as possible (although in a way that can be dangerous, learn one pin and you might know them all if a wallet is lost or stolen). So just maybe the fanks have some small basis in fact how Americans might feel about having to memorize a number of different pins.

Again we can't forget, not that it is an excuse for not having gone with emv sooner, the sheer size of the American payment system does make it different from most of the rest of the worl. Even the giant countries such as China and India do not have nearly the same diversity of banks, at least I don't think so and of course I could be wrong, that we do.

Just some random thoughts.
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Old Jan 10, 14, 2:59 pm
  #2606  
 
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Originally Posted by LoneTree View Post
I don't know on what basis they can make this assertion given that I have yet to encounter a single POS unit in my area that will even accept an EMV transaction. How can Americans prefer any non-existent option?
They're pretty much making assumptions based on how we currently do via swiping the mag-stripe: "people are used to signing for credit cards, punching in PIN for debit cards, therefore it should remain the same."

Of course, I have yet to hear or have attended any bank or industry sponsored seminars that takes into consideration of the consumers' POV. Most of these EMV talks have been restricted to financial institutions, the payments industry, and merchant groups, with little or no input from the people who are to use these cards: us, the consumers.

You know, when people joined Andrews FCU or State Dept FCU via the American Consumer Council, wouldn't it make sense that this consumer council should have a voice in EMV from the consumers' POV?
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Old Jan 10, 14, 3:09 pm
  #2607  
 
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
This has been one of their justifications for going with chip and signature. Actually the word prefer might be wrong. I think as I remember the actual point was American are used to signature transacton and why rock the boat. I doubt extremely if they did a poll to figure ot what people prefer although let me throw a thought out, again I'm thinking out loud and could be all wet and feel free to tell me I am.

The distinguishing feature of the American payments system is literally how many different banks issue plastic be it credit or debit. In the UK, what are there a couple of banks in each country making up the UK (England, Scotland, Northern Ireland while Wales has the English banks I think). Hence having all that many different payment cards is nowhere near as common in the UK as in the US; same holds true pretty much for Canada. I think most settle on one bank and hence what do they have to remember, one pin for the debit card and one pin for the credit card?
I don't know about in Canada but I'd definitely say the average 30+ adult here in the UK has more than two credit or debit cards in their wallet. A lot of people also have cards from different providers. MBNA, American Express, Capital One, Vanquis and Aqua, don't have bank accounts but plenty of people still have these cards.

We manage with all the PINs although generally when we get a new card we'll just go to an ATM and change it to the same one as use on all our other cards. The banks generally encourage us to use one PIN. A lot of cards won't work until they've been activated and unlocked in a ATM anyway (Although some act like C&S cards until they've been unlocked) so not a huge inconvenience to change it.
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Old Jan 10, 14, 3:21 pm
  #2608  
 
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Originally Posted by reclusive46 View Post
We manage with all the PINs although generally when we get a new card we'll just go to an ATM and change it to the same one as use on all our other cards.
Do you know whether the PIN change is online (PIN change stored on server) or does it physically re-write it onto the EMV chip itself (PIN change on EMV chip)?

If it's only the former, the US can already do that with PIN changes over the phone, through the ATM or by walking into a branch. Despite what clueless CSRs say, it seems by now through reports that online PIN (the PIN used for cash advance, not some random 0000 or 1234) works with Chip-and-Signature and generally it goes through as a purchase instead of cash advance.

But if there is a need to physically re-write the PIN change onto the EMV chip itself, then there's a problem. The US doesn't have that so that will be an extra cost for the banks to deal with. And from a bank's perspective that's the usual "waaaah, it's gonna cost us money, boo-hoo-hoo, feel sorry for us *sniff sniff*"
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Old Jan 10, 14, 3:33 pm
  #2609  
 
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More banging my head against the brick wall at Chase today. Called in to get the PIN again, and (after several warnings about Cash Advance fees) it turns out my card isn't eligible since I set my Cash Advance limit to zero some months back. Sigh.

After the CSR asked why, I explained so I could use it at automated kiosks. He said, "Oh! You mean Chip and PIN! Just hit cancel and you'll be fine, this is Chip and Signature." Looks like I'll have to go the video and youtube route if it happens. They definitely don't know how their priority lists are setup.

Should be fun at an automated kiosk when it reads Priority 1: Online PIN verification and I don't have a PIN.

Last edited by LoneTree; Jan 10, 14 at 4:06 pm
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Old Jan 10, 14, 3:45 pm
  #2610  
 
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Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
Do you know whether the PIN change is online (PIN change stored on server) or does it physically re-write it onto the EMV chip itself (PIN change on EMV chip)?

If it's only the former, the US can already do that with PIN changes over the phone, through the ATM or by walking into a branch. Despite what clueless CSRs say, it seems by now through reports that online PIN (the PIN used for cash advance, not some random 0000 or 1234) works with Chip-and-Signature and generally it goes through as a purchase instead of cash advance.

But if there is a need to physically re-write the PIN change onto the EMV chip itself, then there's a problem. The US doesn't have that so that will be an extra cost for the banks to deal with. And from a bank's perspective that's the usual "waaaah, it's gonna cost us money, boo-hoo-hoo, feel sorry for us *sniff sniff*"
In the past all Pin changes had to be at the ATM as the change was hard coded on the chip itself. Some issuers are now supporting remote change, where you change it over the phone or online, enter your old PIN on the next transaction after that the PIN will update for the transaction (Excluding Plane and Rail transactions as these normally process offline) via issuer scripts I assume. The latter is only just really starting to happen though and as some transactions happen offline it can really confuse customers as to whether their PIN has changed. This method works better in other countries that use online pin as priority and then offline PIN as the secondary CVM, this means the offline PIN will update when you use your new PIN on the next transaction (NO having to remember the old one or wonder if its changed yet).

Regarding the PIN causing a cash advance fee, I don't see how this could happen as this would only happen at an ATM or if the transaction was routed through a US debit network which wouldn't be possible outside of the US.
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