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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

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Old Jan 15, 16, 11:38 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: philemer
Wiki Link
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old Jan 7, 14, 1:56 pm
  #2551  
 
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Originally Posted by Joe1690 View Post
is that financial institutions have trained debit card users to always choose signature over pin
My bank never gave me "training" on how to use my debit or credit cards. I've been with BofA since high school and they were the first bank that gave me a plastic card. I've never attended a in-branch seminar on how to use the card, let alone knew if they offered one; it was more of a "learn as you go" thing, just like a computer or a smartphone.

Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 7, 14 at 2:12 pm
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Old Jan 7, 14, 2:05 pm
  #2552  
 
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..and that was true for years before this whole broo ha ha started with debit cards and the like. For years, when you used a debit card in a swipe terminal at grocery stores or department stores like Walmart, the first thing you were asked was credit or debit. Well you weren't really using the debit card as a credit card, it was just a matter of which network it went through namely the credit network (signature) or the debit network (pin). To most, it didn't make the slightest bit of difference. Many of the population preferred signature (credit). No pin to remember. Then Walmart, among others, changed the system so that if you were using a debit card you no longer had a choice. You had to enter a pin (cleared through debit network) and many complained because they had no idea of what their pin was. In return, this helped the merchants as the fees for debit card transacton are lower than the fees for credit card transactions. Now, as I understand it, people whill have the oportunity to choose different debit networks (is that right? I don't use debit cards so I don't follow it closely; I have no idea why anybody would ever want to use a debit card as if it is a credit card for a variety of reasons including the possibility of cloning and having your bank account raided of actual money and having your outstanding checks turn to rubber but that's another story).

I wonder if this whole thing about debit cards is just another excuse for the banks to not convert to emv.
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Old Jan 7, 14, 2:39 pm
  #2553  
 
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Originally Posted by LoneTree View Post
I definitely had this one when I asked my credit union to issue an EMV card. "Just go to an ATM. Problem solved."
Your next comeback would be: some ATMs abroad don't accept mag-stripes anymore either (i.e. Canada http://www.access-cash.com/emv.php). What's their suggestion then? Go back to using travelers checks?

I also don't buy the "very few Americans travel outside of the country" as an excuse either.

As of the last State Department data, approximately 1/3rd of Americans now have passports (113+ million valid US passports in circulation as of 2012). In 2012 alone, the US State Dept. issued over 13+ million new passports.

This also doesn't include the number of legal US permanent residents who retain their foreign passports as well (like my mom).

I dunno about you, but 113+ million Americans + number of legal US permanent residents who are capable of travelling abroad is by far a very large number; in fact it's probably as much or likely more than the entire population of Mexico!


Really, in this day and age, it's not that hard to Google/wikipedia up all these data to fact check the banks' lame excuses and BSes. I don't know why they think they can continue to believe otherwise that people will remain ignorant.

Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 7, 14 at 3:02 pm
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Old Jan 7, 14, 3:44 pm
  #2554  
 
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Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
Your next comeback would be: some ATMs abroad don't accept mag-stripes anymore either (i.e. Canada http://www.access-cash.com/emv.php). What's their suggestion then? Go back to using travelers checks?
They suggested going into a bank branch and asking for a cash advance on my debit card as a backup. Ugh, what am I going to do if even the ATMs don't work? It was bad enough in Argentina when every single merchant refused to accept Credit Cards.

I'm most surprised about State Department FCU choosing Chip and Sig. As a Foreign Service Officer in waiting (stupid budget fight) I would think that a credit union that caters to people who live abroad for years at a time would default to Chip and PIN.
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Old Jan 7, 14, 3:55 pm
  #2555  
 
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Originally Posted by LoneTree View Post
They suggested going into a bank branch and asking for a cash advance on my debit card as a backup.
Yeah, my travels to Calgary for example, the plane usually lands around 11PM~midnight. What bank is open at that time? I'm all ears.
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Old Jan 7, 14, 4:05 pm
  #2556  
 
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Originally Posted by LoneTree View Post
They suggested going into a bank branch and asking for a cash advance on my debit card as a backup. Ugh, what am I going to do if even the ATMs don't work? It was bad enough in Argentina when every single merchant refused to accept Credit Cards.

I'm most surprised about State Department FCU choosing Chip and Sig. As a Foreign Service Officer in waiting (stupid budget fight) I would think that a credit union that caters to people who live abroad for years at a time would default to Chip and PIN.
i'm really not sure it was SDFCU's ultimate decision. It is apparent that they use the same credit card processor as does Andrews FCU and Pen FCU. I suspect it was the processor's decision. Just a guess however.
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Old Jan 7, 14, 4:21 pm
  #2557  
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
Yeah but it's easy to get fake ID's like that which means it's ineffective anyway.
If our ID cards are secure enough to establish identity for driving, voting, or opening a bank account, they should be secure enough for a credit card purchase. Of course nothing is 100% secure, but that doesn't mean it is completely useless.

Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
I still don't see the advantage of being forced to show ID for a credit card transaction.
The advantage is less credit card fraud. If you get hit with fraud, you have to deal with it. You may not be liable for the purchases, but you still have to do some paperwork, get a new card, change your recurring billing information, and so on. Just because we have zero liability doesn't mean that you shouldn't be concerned about the consequences of fraud, because you are paying for it one way or another.
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Old Jan 7, 14, 4:25 pm
  #2558  
 
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Originally Posted by cbn42 View Post
If our ID cards are secure enough to establish identity for driving, voting, or opening a bank account, they should be secure enough for a credit card purchase. Of course nothing is 100% secure, but that doesn't mean it is completely useless.



The advantage is less credit card fraud. If you get hit with fraud, you have to deal with it. You may not be liable for the purchases, but you still have to do some paperwork, get a new card, change your recurring billing information, and so on. Just because we have zero liability doesn't mean that you shouldn't be concerned about the consequences of fraud, because you are paying for it one way or another.
Except it would be easy to fake for credit card fraud. Bring a fake out-of-state ID, passport card, or other rare ID and I doubt they'll know what a real one looks like.

Heck, even before the courts struck down Voter ID here I showed them a Passport card and they didn't verify it.
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Old Jan 7, 14, 4:28 pm
  #2559  
 
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Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
Yeah, my travels to Calgary for example, the plane usually lands around 11PM~midnight. What bank is open at that time? I'm all ears.
Then the bank will be happy to tell you about their rip-off currency exchange services so you can have money in advance.

In reality my local credit union just said they wouldn't do anything until the 2015 liability shift. I pressed them harder and they said the only way it would happen is if EMV became popular sooner.
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Old Jan 7, 14, 4:36 pm
  #2560  
 
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Originally Posted by LoneTree View Post
Then the bank will be happy to tell you about their rip-off currency exchange services so you can have money in advance.

In reality my local credit union just said they wouldn't do anything until the 2015 liability shift. I pressed them harder and they said the only way it would happen is if EMV became popular sooner.
In that light, I'd just say join another credit union that does (there's no requirement that you have to cancel your relationship with your current CU as well). No need to stress over it when there are a lot of options now.

I myself am a member of Andrews FCU and I live in LA which is waaaaaay far from where their branches are located. In fact, Andrews FCU sort of have become like a secondary bank for me (main bank is BofA). It's not like I need a live in-person branch services when these days, majority of the banking stuff can be done online or through a smartphone app.

Frankly, the only thing that can't be done online or through the ATM is deposit coins (meh) and give me money in multiple denominations (if I want to break a $20, I go to 7-Eleven).

Other than that, depositing checks, withdrawing money (fee free of course), transferring funds, online bill pay, etc. is pretty much the same across most US financial institutions nowadays that rarely you have a need to step a foot into a real bank and talk to someone.

Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 7, 14 at 4:52 pm
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Old Jan 7, 14, 4:59 pm
  #2561  
 
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
For years, when you used a debit card in a swipe terminal at grocery stores or department stores like Walmart, the first thing you were asked was credit or debit. Well you weren't really using the debit card as a credit card, it was just a matter of which network it went through namely the credit network (signature) or the debit network (pin). To most, it didn't make the slightest bit of difference. Many of the population preferred signature (credit). No pin to remember.
I don't think that was the reason. When Visa/MC check cards became popular 15 or so years ago, my bank at the time would charge $0.50 for debit transactions but nothing for credit transactions. Furthermore, there were not the zero-dollar liability protections in place at the time, especially not for debit transactions. People got into the habit because the financial gurus were all telling them that the liability protections were better if the transaction went over the Visa or MC networks. However, I still see people say debit and enter their PIN. I'm not sure if I buy your argument that people don't remember their PIN because these same would would need to know their PIN to use an ATM.
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Old Jan 7, 14, 5:00 pm
  #2562  
 
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Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
Frankly, the only thing that can't be done online or through the ATM is deposit coins (meh) and give me money in multiple denominations (if I want to break a $20, I go to 7-Eleven).
And who needs to deposit coins now that the mint deal has been dead for 2.5 years?
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Old Jan 7, 14, 5:06 pm
  #2563  
 
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Originally Posted by Majuki View Post
And who needs to deposit coins now that the mint deal has been dead for 2.5 years?
When you own a coin laundry/coin operated car wash business of course!

Actually I do have a side job that requires me to carry small bills and some coins for change. I also do end up travelling to the East Coast every now and then, which I prepare beforehand to have at least 20 $1 bills and a $10 worth of quarters for toll roads.

I also recycle cans and bottles every week (here in CA, you already prepay 5 or 10 cents per can or bottle at the point of sale and you get that money back when you recycle) in which the nearby recycler (actually gives me more than 5-10 cents per can/bottle as they go by the pound) gives me the money in Sacagawea dollar coins and Kennedy half dollars for whatever reason (marketing?). Adding up the cans and bottles I drink myself plus "donations" from co-workers, it adds up to about $5-$6 back every week. And the recycler is just a few blocks from my place of work so I can go there during lunch time.

It just goes back into the bank and that's really the only time I end up waiting in line at BofA. If the ATM had a way to deposit coins like the ones they have in Japan, I'd do it at the ATM. Overall, the total recycling money that I got back last year was enough to buy me a new iPad Air.

Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 7, 14 at 5:19 pm
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Old Jan 7, 14, 5:22 pm
  #2564  
 
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Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
I also recycle cans and bottles every week (here in CA, you already prepay 5 or 10 cents per can or bottle at the point of sale and you get that money back when you recycle) in which the nearby recycler (actually gives me more than 5-10 cents per can/bottle as they go by the pound) gives me the money in Sacagawea dollar coins and Kennedy half dollars for whatever reason (marketing?).

It just goes back into the bank and that's really the only time I end up waiting in line at BofA. Overall, the total recycling money that I got back last year was enough to buy me a new iPad Air.
That's quite an impressive haul. I'm familiar with bottle deposits, I never bothered with the cash return value when I lived in Santa Clara because the nearby recycling center (NexCycle) was only open at inconvenient hours and it was a two-stage process. You got a paper receipt (like a credit card receipt) from the guys who took your cans behind a Lucky supermarket and then had to go to the customer service desk inside the Lucky to cash out. I normally didn't shop at Lucky, so the only reason to go into the store was to get the cash. I just ended up dropping all of my cans in the recycle garbage bins at my apartment on the way out the door in the morning. (Although in doing so I probably was one of those contributing to the problem of the homeless guys raiding the bins overnight.)

In other states where I've lived with bottle deposits (OR and MI), it has been a more streamlined process where the bottle returns are either inside the supermarket or right near the entrance. I remember being able to apply my bottle deposit receipt as a coupon off of my purchase at Fred Meyer, for instance. Come to think of it, you might be able to do that at Lucky too, but, again, I never shopped there.
Majuki is offline  
Old Jan 7, 14, 5:25 pm
  #2565  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: BOM
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 806
Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
In that light, I'd just say join another credit union that does (there's no requirement that you have to cancel your relationship with your current CU as well). No need to stress over it when there are a lot of options now.

I myself am a member of Andrews FCU and I live in LA which is waaaaaay far from where their branches are located. In fact, Andrews FCU sort of have become like a secondary bank for me (main bank is BofA). It's not like I need a live in-person branch services when these days, majority of the banking stuff can be done online or through a smartphone app.

Frankly, the only thing that can't be done online or through the ATM is deposit coins (meh) and give me money in multiple denominations (if I want to break a $20, I go to 7-Eleven).

Other than that, depositing checks, withdrawing money (fee free of course), transferring funds, online bill pay, etc. is pretty much the same across most US financial institutions nowadays that rarely you have a need to step a foot into a real bank and talk to someone.
I don't blame them and they've been good to me. They actually switched processors so they could roll out EMV sooner on the debit side. Since debit EMV standards were just finalized in the last few weeks it's not like they're behind the curve at this point or anything.

I'll join State Dept. FCU eventually, I'm just waiting until I'm fully hired (there's multiple levels of "hired".) Though I'd also be eligible for full USAA membership, so we'll see.
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