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USA issuers announce EMV cards (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature).

USA issuers announce EMV cards (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature).

Old Apr 18, 11, 1:14 pm
  #31  
 
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I have a Citibank Singapore chip-and-signature EMV card. It caused a lot of confusion in Europe when it was a chip card that wanted a signature, and again in New Zealand as they started their EMV rollout.

Only time I recall it failing in Europe was trying to buy rail tickets at AMS, where my mag-only cards also didn't work.
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Old Apr 19, 11, 7:00 am
  #32  
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Most Dutch rail ticket machines don't take Visa or MasterCard at all.
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Old Apr 19, 11, 9:26 am
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by stifle View Post
Most Dutch rail ticket machines don't take Visa or MasterCard at all.
The ones in Schiphol airport do - I ended up paying at the machine using a chip-and-PIN visa.
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Old Apr 19, 11, 1:51 pm
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
Also, isn't Chase one of the largest suppliers of chip terminals up in Canada?
Yes, so hopefully they will be able to leverage that experience for the US

Originally Posted by richarddd View Post
My understanding is that Chip & Signature has both a standard chip & pin EMV and a standard mag strip. You don't need a pin for mag strip signature, but you need a pin for EMV authorization.
No that's incorrect. Chip and Signature simply means that the EMV chip does not support PIN authentication, however the transaction is still processed following EMV protocols. The difference is you need to sign the receipt rather than entering a PIN. These cards are very common in Asia.

Originally Posted by sdsearch View Post

So I don't understand the point of anyone in the US issuing Chip & Signature cards but no Chip & PIN cards.
It is an easier first step to issue EMV cards without a PIN because when you issue PIN cards, you need to set up infrastructure to manage and to allow cardholders to change their PINs as well.

Issuing EMV cards without a PIN will probably solve 90% of the problems that Americans experience overseas. The only situations they will not solve is if the terminal is programmed to only accept PIN authentication and nothing else - then the card cannot be used.
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Old Apr 19, 11, 11:27 pm
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by D582 View Post
It is an easier first step to issue EMV cards without a PIN because when you issue PIN cards, you need to set up infrastructure to manage and to allow cardholders to change their PINs as well.
Politically it's also ideal for consumers. We can allow the upgrade to EMV/sign, but then later reject the banks attempt to downgrade to chip-pin. The banks would still try to sell PIN use as a convenience, but it would be obvious to more consumers that it's an attempt to shift legal protection.

Originally Posted by D582 View Post
The only situations they will not solve is if the terminal is programmed to only accept PIN authentication and nothing else - then the card cannot be used.
I thought this is what the earlier poster was talking about when entering all 0's? Why would a terminal that is EMV-sign-aware even ask for a PIN in the first place?
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Old Apr 20, 11, 3:51 am
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by EUnomad View Post
Politically it's also ideal for consumers. We can allow the upgrade to EMV/sign, but then later reject the banks attempt to downgrade to chip-pin. The banks would still try to sell PIN use as a convenience, but it would be obvious to more consumers that it's an attempt to shift legal protection.
Do U.S. laws already permit this blame shifting? If so, why not change them? A signature doesn't prove anything. Rarely is a signature checked. At least Chip and PIN means two-factor authentication instead of one (something you know, something you have) which is always going to be more secure than one factor (something you have).
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Old Apr 20, 11, 6:41 am
  #37  
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Originally Posted by EUnomad View Post
...banks would still try to sell PIN use as a convenience, ...
I don't anticipate that US card issuers will want to encourage use of PINs for domestic credit card transactions because they have created a huge revenue distinction between signature and PIN based authentication. US banks encourage customers to use debit cards with a signature rather than with a PIN because they earn far less on PIN transactions. If banks begin to offer PIN based credit card transactions the large national merchants will want to renegotiate their card acceptance agreements to reflect a similar discount.

Chip and Signature allows Chase to offer a large degree of international compatibility, without the risk of losing enormous domestic revenue.
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Old Apr 20, 11, 12:56 pm
  #38  
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Originally Posted by D582 View Post
Issuing EMV cards without a PIN will probably solve 90% of the problems that Americans experience overseas. The only situations they will not solve is if the terminal is programmed to only accept PIN authentication and nothing else - then the card cannot be used.
How? Isn't 90% of the problems that American experience overseas with unatteneded koisks and such? (Merchants you can talk to face to face can usually take the swipe, though many seem not know it until they try.) How does putting a chip&signature card into a kiosk that expects a PIN as the security verification work? Are you told to put in a specific "generic" PIN for that card type?

If it doesn't work in unattended kiosks, then I'm not sure what good it is for consumers. Unattended kiosks, from what I understand, are the main problem, not a tangential problem. (Perhaps because there are many more ways to work around a seeming unacceptance of swipe when there's a human involved, but no ways to work around it other than chip&pin AFAIK when there's no human in sight.)
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Old Apr 23, 11, 12:27 pm
  #39  
 
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Originally Posted by richarddd View Post
It seems most of the serious problems that Americans have involve unattended kiosks - train tickets, gas stations, etc. Will chip and signature help in those cases?
Originally Posted by sdsearch View Post
How? Isn't 90% of the problems that American experience overseas with unatteneded koisks and such? (Merchants you can talk to face to face can usually take the swipe, though many seem not know it until they try.) How does putting a chip&signature card into a kiosk that expects a PIN as the security verification work? Are you told to put in a specific "generic" PIN for that card type?

If it doesn't work in unattended kiosks, then I'm not sure what good it is for consumers. Unattended kiosks, from what I understand, are the main problem, not a tangential problem. (Perhaps because there are many more ways to work around a seeming unacceptance of swipe when there's a human involved, but no ways to work around it other than chip&pin AFAIK when there's no human in sight.)
It really depends on how the the kiosks are set up. If they only support PIN authentication, then Chip and Signature cards will not work. However you must also keep in mind that many European banks issue Chip and Signature cards to some customers as well, and many people in Asian countries only have Chip and Signature cards, and I have not heard of either of those groups of people having issues. The main thing those kiosks are looking for is the chip, not necessarily the PIN
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Old Apr 28, 11, 3:58 pm
  #40  
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In related EMV news, Cardiff Holdings, one of the largest card personalization companies in the US has just applied for EMV certification. Nice to know card manufacturers are starting to prep up for manufacturing of chipped cards. ^

How quickly things are moving is surprising. Just a year ago, many here were balking that the US would ever move to EMV and that it’d take years to happen. Looks like I only needed a less than a year's worth of sleep.


Now if only high speed rail could be built just as fast...
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Old May 5, 11, 12:33 pm
  #41  
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Wal-Mart is now active with its Chip-and-PIn terminals

Wal-Mart Stores Inc. has now enabled all of its U.S. stores with terminals to accept chip cards

Other interesting points in the same article:

Wal-Mart enthusiastic about moving toward EMV payments and applauds Chase and Wells Fargo's decision to start issuing them, but is skeptical about their limited issuance. Agreed. It seems that Chase and Wells Fargo assumes only the uber-rich jetsetters travel internationally. Have they considered many people living in Detroit, Buffalo, and Seattle drive across the border to Canada for vacation quite often?


And again, the lame argument " 'Why should [banks] spend $1 or $2 [on EMV cards] if they only get 12 cents back...If you’re a bank, what’s the value of the investment?' ”

What then about considering an optional system where a customer has the option to call their bank to upgrade their card to a hybrid Chip-and-PIN/mag-stripe/RFID card for a nominal fee to cover that issuance cost?


Finally, the point about the cost of changing terminals. "Some 70% to 80% of VeriFone Systems Inc. terminal shipments into retail stores are not EMV-capable...we’re still shipping a lot of terminals without smart card readers,” he told the conference. Cost is the main barrier...large merchants whose names you would recognize are choosing not to install [readers] because of the [incremental] price."

However the counter-argument can be made is that terminals, just like any other machine, has its end of life and by then terminals will become pre-equipped with handing RFID and EMV payments along with mag-stripes.

Just look at 7-Eleven, BestBuy, Staples, and heck even the US Post Office. I see terminals being replaced all over LA with newer terminals as they replace their aging ones. Like upgrading a software, you're not going to see merchants upgrading their computers overnight. It takes time, but as time progresses, there will be more and more merchants using terminals that already come pre-equipped with handling multi-payment processing.
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Old May 5, 11, 5:37 pm
  #42  
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In other news, UNFCU reports significant jumps in applications for their EMV enabled VISA Elite cards at yesterday's Smart Card Alliance Annual Conference, highlighting a case that demand and customer frustration for mag-stripe only cards are there.
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Old May 10, 11, 11:18 am
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
Wal-Mart is now active with its Chip-and-PIn terminals
Has anyone here tried it? I'm not even sure I know where the closest Wal-Mart is, but maybe I'll stop by and see if I can get it to work.
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Old May 10, 11, 12:52 pm
  #44  
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Originally Posted by jmhayes View Post
Has anyone here tried it? I'm not even sure I know where the closest Wal-Mart is, but maybe I'll stop by and see if I can get it to work.
Worth a shot I suppose. I’ve seen some merchants to be already live on the Chip & PIN terminals. For example, there’s a 7-Eleven near one of the lower scale hotels at LAX where the guys working there already know how to accept payments with Chip & PIN credit cards. They’ve gotten used to it when tourists were inserting their chipped cards into the slot and entering their PIN instead of swiping them.

There was even a trainee there who was being taught by another employee saying “you’re lucky you’re working at a 7-Eleven near the airport; you’re getting the first hand training on how to accept the newer cards that tourists have.”
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Old May 12, 11, 12:57 pm
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Originally Posted by mia View Post
American Express IDC website now shows graphics with chipped cards. This is probably inadvertent mixing of artwork with the UK site, but when I asked I was told that Chip & PIN IDC would be available later in 2010. I'd like to believe it, but I'm skeptical.
I have both an Amex International Dollar Card and a Euro card. I got a letter from Amex in the post today telling me I have to pick a PIN by May 22 for my dollar card as my new Chip & PIN card will be arriving soon. My dollar card expires at the end of July. Nothing so far about my Euro card, but that card doesn't expire until 2013!

Hopefully I can change my Euro card to a Chip & PIN card before it expires. Amex can be a nuisance to use in Europe, especially without a chip.
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