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Best place to spend winter during a potential second wave of COVID?

Best place to spend winter during a potential second wave of COVID?

Old Nov 11, 20, 10:49 am
  #661  
 
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Originally Posted by the810 View Post
Sweden will ban alcohol sales after 22:30. At last they joined the rest of Europe in firing random nonsensical meassures out of desperation. I expect people's compliance with meassures to get even lower now (and Systembolaget's revenue to skyrocket).
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We have been in Stockholm for the last 4 days and having spent the last month in Switzerland, Germany, Malta & Portugal our feeling about people's attitude here in Sweden is: "virus, what virus, never heard of it"

First time we realized that things would be different when we arrived at Arlanda and came out of the baggage claim area, almost no-one was wearing masks. On the Arlanda Express again almost no-one is wearing masks including the conductor who checks the tickets.

At restaurants, cafes etc. no-one is wearing masks only at one hotel we saw a plexi glass divider and the employee was wearing a mask, however there could be more as we only stayed in 2 hotels here.
We spend most of our time in nature and when in Stockholm it's not very busy except in one cafe one day I felt a little uncomfortable as it was quite busy but we found a quiet corner away from everyone.

Not sure quite what to make of it here but we honestly preferred how things were in Malta and Portugal (masks everywhere). We are still feeling safe here and are just keeping our distance as much as possible wherever we are.
I am not saying one or the other way is right or wrong, it's simply our own preference but we love being here, it's a nice break from all the crazyness over the last few month.
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Old Nov 11, 20, 11:05 am
  #662  
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There are more and more domestic critics in Sweden of the approach, the attitude of the government (their health and education ministers are making claims contrary to dozens of studies and consensus among scientific, concerning masks, propagation mode or children contagious potential), the decrease of testing capacity.
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/kri...ik-fler-avled/
https://www.thelocal.se/20201111/bre...hol-after-10pm
https://www.dn.se/sthlm/covid-smitta...-aldreboenden/

Their approach is also criticised as Swedes behave the same way internationally:
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/11/10/s...ion-interview/

Not forgetting the revelation from Time Magazine that the government lied to its people:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/swedish-c...090039825.html
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Old Nov 11, 20, 12:41 pm
  #663  
 
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Originally Posted by ozgal View Post
I just cannot understand why people need to feel the need to escape, when its your's and other's you don't know about, lives AT RISK!
It's probably not worth engaging, because clearly this is a common attitude I read online from some in very harsh lockdown areas who fail to have any empathy for others.

Many of us don't have much time left, or we are separated from our family, or our partner, or have lost our job, or our home, or the only way to get income or medical treatment is to go elsewhere. Those of us with a limited expiration date had plans for what time we have left, and are at far more risk of dying from something else vs COVID.

I have said before that I know people who will die alone, without their loved ones, thanks to the unrealistic and harsh treatment in Australia. Yet I also know that many people there support that. The risk for anything in life has to be weighed, and unfortunately for many of us, COVID is just something in the background while we deal with far more critical things.

I've stopped reading or posting here because of the complete lack of understanding from some posters that not everyone is in a safe place right now, and not everyone can look forward to what 2021 may have in store for them. I'm very happy for those of you travelling around, and for sharing your stories online and offline with me. And I'm so glad that I did relatively a lot of travel this year and plan to continue for as long as I can.
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Old Nov 11, 20, 12:46 pm
  #664  
 
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Originally Posted by yvrcnx View Post
First time we realized that things would be different when we arrived at Arlanda and came out of the baggage claim area, almost no-one was wearing masks. On the Arlanda Express again almost no-one is wearing masks including the conductor who checks the tickets.

At restaurants, cafes etc. no-one is wearing masks
Masks are not recommended by Swedish authorities (they argue the lack of evidence + false sense of security), which is why almost no one wears them. I'm still surprised that people are surprised Virtually no one is gonna wear that thing voluntarily, especially if the official advice is that they're useless.

I much prefer physical distancing over masks, which is why I like Sweden very much these days. No one can infect you if they're keeping distance.

What surprised me is the switch towards less rational approach (it's obvious that the virus doesn't spread more after 22:00). I think it speaks volumes that this meassure was presented by the government, not Tegnell, so it might well be the case of politicians taking control and setting experts aside. Hopefully I'm wrong.
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Old Nov 11, 20, 1:09 pm
  #665  
 
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Originally Posted by yvrcnx View Post
We have been in Stockholm for the last 4 days and having spent the last month in Switzerland, Germany, Malta & Portugal our feeling about people's attitude here in Sweden is: "virus, what virus, never heard of it"
And yet Sweden's covid-19 death rate is ten times that of neighbouring Norway. It sounds to me more like denial than anything else.
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Old Nov 11, 20, 1:10 pm
  #666  
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Originally Posted by the810 View Post
Masks are not recommended by Swedish authorities (they argue the lack of evidence + false sense of security), which is why almost no one wears them. I'm still surprised that people are surprised Virtually no one is gonna wear that thing voluntarily, especially if the official advice is that they're useless.

I much prefer physical distancing over masks, which is why I like Sweden very much these days. No one can infect you if they're keeping distance.

What surprised me is the switch towards less rational approach (it's obvious that the virus doesn't spread more after 22:00). I think it speaks volumes that this meassure was presented by the government, not Tegnell, so it might well be the case of politicians taking control and setting experts aside. Hopefully I'm wrong.
This is not correct
Evidence suggests that SARS-CoV-2, as well as other coronaviruses, can be dispersed and potentially transmitted by aerosols directly or via ventilation systems. We therefore investigated ventilation openings in one COVID-19 ward and central ducts that expel indoor air from three COVID-19 wards at Uppsala University Hospital, Sweden, during April and May 2020. Swab samples were taken from individual ceiling ventilation openings and surfaces in central ducts. Samples were subsequently subjected to rRT-PCR targeting the N and E genes of SARS-CoV-2. Central ventilation HEPA filters, located several stories above the wards, were removed and portions analyzed in the same manner. In two subsequent samplings, SARS-CoV-2 N and E genes were detected in seven and four out of 19 room vents, respectively. Central ventilation HEPA exhaust filters from the ward were found positive for both genes in three samples. Corresponding filters from two other, adjacent COVID-19 wards were also found positive. Infective ability of the samples was assessed by inoculation of susceptible cell cultures but could not be determined in these experiments. Detection of SARS-CoV-2 in central ventilation systems, distant from patient areas, indicate that virus can be transported long distances and that droplet transmission alone cannot reasonably explain this, especially considering the relatively low air change rates in these wards. Airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2 must be taken into consideration for preventive measures.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-76442-2
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Old Nov 11, 20, 1:18 pm
  #667  
 
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Originally Posted by Misco60 View Post
And yet Sweden's covid-19 death rate is ten times that of neighbouring Norway. It sounds to me more like denial than anything else.
​​​​​​Denial would be claiming that Covid doesn't exist (or that it isn't a serious issue), which definitely isn't a problem in Sweden in my opinion. Vast majority of Swedes percieves Covid as a real thing. What's different is that they accept it as another dissease they must live with.
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Last edited by the810; Nov 11, 20 at 1:24 pm
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Old Nov 11, 20, 1:32 pm
  #668  
 
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Originally Posted by the810 View Post
​​​​​​Denial would be claiming that Covid doesn't exist, which definitely isn't an issue in Sweden in my opinion. Vast majority of Swedes percieves Covid as a real thing. What's different is that they accept it as another dissease they must live with.
I have 2 friends here in Stockholm and that is definitely their viewpoint - they are very much aware of the virus but believe they have to live with it. I met one of them yesterday and he was very much pro keeping distance but wasn't convinced that wearing a mask would be as helpful .
He is actually a teacher and it's interesting how their approach is so different from for example schools in Germany.

People are definitely aware and when I wrote in my previous post "virus, what virus" that was more like a joke between my son and myself because things are so different here compared to other countries we've been to.

It has honestly been a breath of fresh air being here and I would not hesitate to stay here for a longer time period as I do feel safe and I also feel that it is my responsibility to keep myself and others safe as well which we are doing as much as we possibly can.
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Old Nov 11, 20, 1:37 pm
  #669  
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Originally Posted by Misco60 View Post
And yet Sweden's covid-19 death rate is ten times that of neighbouring Norway. It sounds to me more like denial than anything else.
10 times a small number is still a small number. 6000 deaths out of 10 million people is not going to get people to change. Not for COVID, not for alcohol, not for healthy eating/diets, not for driving safer, etc., etc.
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Old Nov 11, 20, 2:00 pm
  #670  
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6000 deaths out of 10 million was more than enough to get people to change. Perhaps you missed out on how the Swedish hospitality and F&B sectors became ghostly for part of Q2 — and that was when the Swedish deaths were below 6k.

Sweden: a country that is still aiming for zero annual road fatalities and doing things to try to get there. . Cue: lesson about diminishing returns.

Originally Posted by the810 View Post
Sweden will ban alcohol sales after 22:30. At last they joined the rest of Europe in firing random nonsensical meassures out of desperation. I expect people's compliance with meassures to get even lower now (and Systembolaget's revenue to skyrocket).
​​​
Sweden has proposed banning alcohol sales after 10pm, with an anticipation that places with an alcohol license shut down at 10:30pm.

If the proposal becomes law, it will have an impact and increase compliance with measures against the virus’s spread. Then it would be a law and not some sort of toothless recommendation.

Most Swedes buy most of their alcohol for consumption outside of restaurants, bars and clubs, and that pattern (of drinking mostly at homes or otherwise before going out) will most probably not materially change in Sweden (nor in Norway). Home parties in Sweden will likely hover around the same pattern as seen in Sweden already. Systembolaget’s revenues skyrocketing back to previous levels is no big deal. Norway has its own alcohol monopoly, and it makes for a great baseline to compare to Sweden.

Last edited by GUWonder; Nov 11, 20 at 2:06 pm
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Old Nov 11, 20, 3:01 pm
  #671  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
6000 deaths out of 10 million was more than enough to get people to change. Perhaps you missed out on how the Swedish hospitality and F&B sectors became ghostly for part of Q2 and that was when the Swedish deaths were below 6k.
Perhaps you missed post #662 just above.
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Old Nov 11, 20, 4:03 pm
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Originally Posted by stimpy View Post
Perhaps you missed post #662 just above.
Not at all, and nothing new to me in that post.

When the bulk of the Swedish death counts for this was more fresh in mind and when the Swedish daily deaths counts for this was running up way faster in Q2 than now, it was a very different scene than at other times. The point is that even a couple of hundred deaths a week got a bulk of people to change habits for a while and even then some. And it can change again if Sweden gets back to a replay of the Spring.
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Old Nov 11, 20, 4:03 pm
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
Sweden has proposed banning alcohol sales after 10pm, with an anticipation that places with an alcohol license shut down at 10:30pm.

If the proposal becomes law, it will have an impact and increase compliance with measures against the viruss spread. Then it would be a law and not some sort of toothless recommendation.
I'm sceptical. This will just push people from relatively controlled enviroment (restaurants, bars) to partying at home with no oversight whatsoever. Or alternatively, as we seen in other countries, people will simply start drinking earlier.

I believe that every new restriction leads to a lower compliance, as there's only so much people can take (and also if some meassures don't make a lot of sense, authority that issues them can rapidly lose the public trust). Therefore, new restrictions should only be introduced if their benefits outweight this and I don't think that's the case here. People who want to socialise despite Covid will continue to do so, but now they're gonna do it "underground", in private, where no rules apply. Instead of trying to get people on their side, government's trying to fight them and I'm afraid it will backfire.
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Old Nov 11, 20, 4:13 pm
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Originally Posted by the810 View Post
I'm sceptical. This will just push people from relatively controlled enviroment (restaurants, bars) to partying at home with no oversight whatsoever. Or alternatively, as we seen in other countries, people will simply start drinking earlier.

I believe that every new restriction leads to a lower compliance, as there's only so much people can take (and also if some meassures don't make a lot of sense, authority that issues them can rapidly lose the public trust). Therefore, new restrictions should only be introduced if their benefits outweight this and I don't think that's the case here. People who want to socialise despite Covid will continue to do so, but now they're gonna do it "underground", in private, where no rules apply. Instead of trying to get people on their side, government's trying to fight them and I'm afraid it will backfire.
Has there ever been a successful Prohibition in the history of humans?
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Old Nov 11, 20, 4:36 pm
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Restricting the hours of use of liquor licenses by businesses is not the same thing as “Prohibition”. And Sweden has a long history of restricting alcohol sales, marketing alcohol and marketing with alcohol.

Originally Posted by the810 View Post
I'm sceptical. This will just push people from relatively controlled enviroment (restaurants, bars) to partying at home with no oversight whatsoever. Or alternatively, as we seen in other countries, people will simply start drinking earlier.

I believe that every new restriction leads to a lower compliance, as there's only so much people can take (and also if some meassures don't make a lot of sense, authority that issues them can rapidly lose the public trust). Therefore, new restrictions should only be introduced if their benefits outweight this and I don't think that's the case here. People who want to socialise despite Covid will continue to do so, but now they're gonna do it "underground", in private, where no rules apply. Instead of trying to get people on their side, government's trying to fight them and I'm afraid it will backfire.
I keep year-round residences in Sweden, know the culture intimately and been around the country long enough this year too to see what’s going on. Swedish habits of drinking before going out or drinking at home parties continued during this year. And this proposed law becoming law won’t start a new trend in that regard; and — if it becomes law — it will almost certainly reduce mingling indoors with as many strangers since Swedes don’t open their homes all that easily even to all their own neighbors.

Having no restrictions = no compliance failures. But having no restrictions doesn’t work except in a Hobbesian state of nature. There is no national will in Sweden to become a libertarian utopia/dystopia and marching back toward a Hobbesian state of nature open to one and all to do anything and everything with no/almost no restrictions just to feel good about “increasing compliance”. It’s only with Covid-19 that Sweden seems to want to “let it rip” through society. You should see how Sweden — and its health system — freaks about TB for a more typically Swedish response to communicable diseases that hit the respiratory system.
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