Immunity passport [Merged thread]

 
Old Mar 5, 2021, 1:08 pm
  #91  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Standardization of this sort beefs up a surveillance state infrastructure -- a surveillance state infrastructure that likely will end up being used in ways that are not limited to countries' concerns about Covid-19.
I had considered including an ethics component to my initial post - I certainly can understand your point.

That's a hefty topic - and while I've given it casual thought over the past year, I'm still not prepared to offer a well rounded and sourced argument in either direction.

I would posit that the vaccine records in most places are probably already being held in searchable/sortable electronic repositories, and I agree with you that it's likely the information (or tools themselves) could be used in less.. beneficial.. ways in the future. At the same time, it seems like this development is really only about a unified "passport" system, and I'm not sure how a unified system further erodes privacy. The discussion, no doubt, becomes more complicated (and perhaps concerning) as we see how such a passport would be used, what "privileges" it would grant, and how mandatory it would be.
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Old Mar 5, 2021, 4:41 pm
  #92  
 
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As I posted in another thread, from a US perspective, anything along these lines would take years to implement, and many states would in the end not go along. By the time it was implemented, COVID would be a thing of the past. I think a lot of countries are in the same boat. At this point, I think the best course of action for everyone is just wait for the COVID rates to get low enough that it no longer makes any economic or common sense to try and implement this type of plan.
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Old Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 am
  #93  
 
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At first glance, the immunity passport may seem like a useful tool to combat Covid-19 and facilitate travel, but if we think about it, it would reinforce the state of surveillance we are already subject to and diminish our privacy.
We will be more and more monitored!
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Old Mar 9, 2021, 2:55 am
  #94  
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Will proof of Hepatitis A vaccination be part of these "immunity passports"? The more commonly required/accepted an "immunity passport" becomes and the more it covers, the more likely it will motivate people to get vaccinated for more and more things beside just Covid-19.
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Old Mar 9, 2021, 6:43 am
  #95  
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China proposes theirs - Wechat based and tied to National ID (so nationals only) https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03...101673186.html

The bigger oxymoron is China has not authorised any overseas vaccines and majority of non-Chinese countries have not recognised Chinas
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Old Mar 9, 2021, 4:11 pm
  #96  
 
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Originally Posted by carmine10
At first glance, the immunity passport may seem like a useful tool to combat Covid-19 and facilitate travel, but if we think about it, it would reinforce the state of surveillance we are already subject to and diminish our privacy.
We will be more and more monitored!
Privacy? It's not like we have much of it once we leave our homes. Once we leave our homes we pretty much have to prove who we say we are or be monitored. When we go to the airport, when we enter/leave our cars in the parking garage/lot, a camera snaps a picture of the license plate. Once you step into one, you have cameras, security and law enforcement watching over. When airline services are rendered, we need to show ID at the front counter, pass through security, take a "sneak peek" inside our bags, and maybe on our way to board our flight.

If you purchase an ticket, then its likely governments will find out depending how well organized they are in getting this information.

Other than those who live a simple lifestyle without the comforts of modern conveniences, the rest of us don't have much in terms of privacy. We have already traded privacy for modern conveniences, ease of availability and access to scare resources.
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Last edited by i0wnj00; Mar 9, 2021 at 4:18 pm
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Old Mar 9, 2021, 4:31 pm
  #97  
 
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While it's safe to say there's not much privacy from the time you enter an airport until you leave an airport, I wouldn't apply that to the rest of life, at least in the US. Of course, lots of people who complain about cameras at airports or on subways and things are more than happy for fork over far more personal information to social media accounts and the like.
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Old Mar 9, 2021, 5:12 pm
  #98  
 
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Originally Posted by catocony
While it's safe to say there's not much privacy from the time you enter an airport until you leave an airport, I wouldn't apply that to the rest of life, at least in the US. .
I have never been to a country where I have seen more police on the streets than in America. Granted, I have not travelled to Asia or Africa, just Europe. And to some the mere presence of that number of police on American streets is a "police state" type thing, so it's all about perceptions I guess.
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Old Mar 9, 2021, 6:02 pm
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Originally Posted by Barciur
I have never been to a country where I have seen more police on the streets than in America. Granted, I have not travelled to Asia or Africa, just Europe. And to some the mere presence of that number of police on American streets is a "police state" type thing, so it's all about perceptions I guess.
Have you ever been to CDMX? You can't walk a step or two without another police car passing you. There are police everywhere. Also Istanbul was fairly police heavy, including "tourism police", with police tanks parked in tourist areas like Taksim square. Japan has quite a few police also, but more inline with levels in an American city.
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Old Mar 9, 2021, 6:09 pm
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Originally Posted by carmine10
At first glance, the immunity passport may seem like a useful tool to combat Covid-19 and facilitate travel, but if we think about it, it would reinforce the state of surveillance we are already subject to and diminish our privacy.
We will be more and more monitored!
I get your concern about surveillance creep, but you have a passport with RFID alongside it which is the ultimate tool in surveillance. My take is, countries have requirements for entry, just like we do in the US. If I want to enter their country, I'm required to abide by those requirements/restrictions. If they require me to be vaccinated and carry immunization records (some countries do), then so be it. The immunity passport is just a fancy name for immunization records that are more official and verifiable. If I don't like it, I can stay and travel in my own beautiful country.
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Old Mar 9, 2021, 7:51 pm
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Originally Posted by catocony
Of course, lots of people who complain about cameras at airports or on subways and things are more than happy for fork over far more personal information to social media accounts and the like.
Those who are more than happy to fork over far more personal information to social media accounts, subscription services, traveler reward programs etc.. do so because they feel that they will get something worthwhile or derive value from that service or product. They volunteered that personal information in order to get that service or product, because instead of paying in currency, you are paying with personal information.

Likewise, "immunity passports" can be argued in the same way, you give up personal information, in exchange for a service or product, in this case, proof that you have been vaccinated in a understandable/acceptable format which allows you being allowed into a foreign country, If you feel that you don't want to disclose this information for personal reasons or don't derive any value in this "immunity passport", then you are free to decline to give up this information.In some countries though, you can't "opt out" so you're stuck with what the government decides.

The same goes for "trusted traveler" programs, you give up personal information in exchange for expedited screening into/out of the country and you do this because you feel that you will get something worthwhile or derive value from being able to get in/out faster. Others will balk at giving up their personal information as they don't feel they will get something worthwhile or derive value from it or think the cost of giving up personal information is too high and no amount of personal information is worth the convenience.

Cameras at airports and subways? These spaces belong to governments or private corporations so they can do whatever they want to them, even up to deciding how much security they want. As a matter of fact they can eject you from those spaces if you aren't following the rules they have in place, that's how much power they have over the properties they own.
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Last edited by i0wnj00; Mar 9, 2021 at 8:08 pm
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Old Mar 9, 2021, 10:07 pm
  #102  
 
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Originally Posted by Barciur
I have never been to a country where I have seen more police on the streets than in America. Granted, I have not travelled to Asia or Africa, just Europe. And to some the mere presence of that number of police on American streets is a "police state" type thing, so it's all about perceptions I guess.
When I was in Brussels in 2018, I saw more police officers than I ever have in an equivalent period in Washington DC (outside of things like protests or major events).
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Old Mar 10, 2021, 1:51 am
  #103  
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The number of law enforcement personnel per capita in Washington (DC) during the typical Monday-Friday period far exceeds the number of law enforcement personnel per capita in the Brussels region (of c. 1.2M people) during comparable days. [US federal police are a huge presence above and beyond the District's own law enforcement personnel.] But what difference does it make in this regard? Much like Washington, Brussels is nowhere close to pushing for "immunity passports" and having them checked by law enforcement personnel on the public streets in either capital region. The EU's biggest powers are not currently on board having "immunity passports" for people to live normal lives of going out and about their business within countries and even across borders within the Schengen region and creating a class of citizens who are more privileged than other citizens just because some happened to get quicker access to a vaccine.

Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 10, 2021 at 2:02 am
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Old Mar 10, 2021, 3:30 am
  #104  
 
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Originally Posted by seigex
I get your concern about surveillance creep, but you have a passport with RFID alongside it which is the ultimate tool in surveillance.
How? The RFID chip in the passport can't be used for any kind of surveillance. It's just a tool to make forging more difficult. The chip includes the same data that are printed in the passport.
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Old Mar 10, 2021, 3:36 am
  #105  
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It can be used for some kind of surveillance, but the phones and internet-connected computers we are using are much more (and more effective) of a surveillance tool than the RFID chips in the North American and EUropean epassports.

Canada too is not all that sure that an "immunity passport" is a good idea: https://www.politico.com/news/2021/0...ssports-474789 Canada's PM is reluctant about it. The US has this in a "do a feasibility study" -- something that at times can be used to pile up dirt for burying the idea.

Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 10, 2021 at 3:42 am
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