Immunity passport [Merged thread]

 
Old Mar 16, 2021, 2:10 am
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Originally Posted by i0wnj00
https://pharmaphorum.com/news/russia...covid-19-shot/
This article should answer both questions whether the US FDA or EMA for the EU, at least for the Sputnik V vaccine. I doubt the Chinese would bother with getting US FDA approval for their vaccines considering widespread ant-Asian sentiment expressed or trust issues in the general public that wouldn't line up to take up such a vaccines and an Biden Administration expressing misgivings on certain issues with China.

At the US FDA can look into companies they are familiar with and have facilities inside the United States they can inspect. It's easier to go after companies like AZ, Moderna, Pfizer, Novavax and J&J if something with vaccines goes horribly wrong, you can't do that with the ones made in Russia or China.

The EMA may entertain using vaccines from Russia and China, but the US FDA is very risk adverse.



Other countries have their own standards so they are free to decide what data sets work for them, if they trust data from the US FDA and the EMA, then good for them. No country should rely on standards and decisions made from the US FDA or EMA to make the ultimate decisions, let alone have an increased confidence in a particular vaccine regarding the health and safety of their citizens.

The US FDA, for an example doesn't care for what the EMA or WHO does, they want datasets from participants from inside the United States, so Oxford-AZ will need to present their own data from US trials for consideration. Even J&J/Janssen and Pfizer-BioNTech had to present data from US trials even through they had assistance with their European partners from regulated countries.

It will be a difficult hurdle (or impossible) to get trial participants inside the United States to test out Russian and Chinese vaccinations.



If some HK residents will be getting Pfizer then its assumed it was approved and acquired legitimately.



The approval of what vaccines are approved for use and get distributed is mainly for the benefit for their own citizens and not so much how or where other citizens get their vaccine. They can easily mandate that foreign visitors use a mask in public spaces or anywhere outside their hotel or place of lodging.
Note - 20k+ HKers have already recived the first shot fo the BioNTech jab, delivered right from Germany.
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 2:00 am
  #152  
 
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Originally Posted by exp
Has Putin gotten the Sputnik V shots?

or his daughter?
Yes, the leader taking the shot would be good proof that it is good.
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 9:58 am
  #153  
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As i said in other threads -> The immunity passport is just a PR stunt by the airline, travel industry and some authoritarian governments.
All it takes is some "bad apples" -> clinics, doctors, vaccination centers -> where they will put you as being vaccinated into the database, if you give them USD 100, without giving you the shot; The "bad apple" would then also state that the vaccine id had been administered; In reality this shot is resold via some dark channels to some poor countries, where people pay good money to receive the vaccine; Yes, this may not happen in the UK or Germany, but the world is bigger than that.

Mr Tehan said Australia wants to work with Singapore on developing a digital vaccine passport that will prove that a traveller has been vaccinated. "We really want that digital vaccination passport up and running, operating, and in a way that we know that we can trust it," he said.
Hahaha, this is a nice wish, but a digital vaccination passport can never be trustful.

We are already seeing lots of corruption in the Covid system;
You can buy a negative PCR-Test on the street;
And if you don't pay extra for the PCR-Test, the test center will just issue a false positive test-result, which will land you into much trouble;
so the deal is -> USD 200 for a negative test result; USD 50 for a positive test results;
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Last edited by warakorn; Mar 17, 2021 at 1:28 pm
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 10:30 am
  #154  
 
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Originally Posted by warakorn
Hahaha, this is a nice wish, but a digital vaccination passport can never be trustful.
...
You can buy a negative PCR-Test on the street;
You can buy fake passports and driver's licenses on the street too, but that hasn't prevented governments from requiring them.
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 11:52 am
  #155  
 
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Originally Posted by warakorn
Hahaha, this is a nice wish, but a digital vaccination passport can never be trustful.
I will see how you are going to laugh if you plan to travel or transit via Singapore once they are announced.

the digital certificate will be authorized/issued by Singapore government for the local residents once they are vaccinated and only these which will be compatible with the requirements set by the government would be allowed for entrance to and transit via Singapore.
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 1:14 pm
  #156  
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And what are they going to do for people who have to visit Singapore from other countries?
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 1:34 pm
  #157  
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I will see how you are going to laugh if you plan to travel or transit via Singapore once they are announced.

the digital certificate will be authorized/issued by Singapore government for the local residents once they are vaccinated and only these which will be compatible with the requirements set by the government would be allowed for entrance to and transit via Singapore.
And what are they going to do for people who have to visit Singapore from other countries?
Good point!
Of course, Singapore Government only allows people to enter who had been vaccinated in Singapore beforehand.
You see that is a Catch-22 dilemma;

The obvious solution is that Singapore would accept non-Singaporean digital certificates. However, then the problem I have described arises. How do you ensure that there are no bad apples in the system (e.g. with an EU-wide scheme)?

You can buy fake passports and driver's licenses on the street too, but that hasn't prevented governments from requiring them.
Thank you for the analogy.
Passport have usually a lot of security features - and only very few companies are contracted to produce passports.
When it comes to a digital immunity passport - you may have 10 of thousands of clinics, doctors and other facililities, who are authorized to administer vaccines - and therefore have write access to the database.
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Last edited by warakorn; Mar 17, 2021 at 1:54 pm
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 1:46 pm
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Originally Posted by warakorn
Thank you for the analogy.
Passport have usually a lot of security features - and only very few companies are contracted to produce passports.
When it comes to a digital immunity passport - you may have 10 of thousands of clinics, doctors and other facililities, who are authorzed to administer vaccines - and therefore have write access to the database.
​​​​​​It's a question of risk versus reward. What is the incentive for the average leisure traveler to use a fake travel document? Well, to be able to go on vacation without having to meet minimal requirements. That's the reward.

What's the risk? Well, even if the odds of getting caught are low, fines and deportation at best, prison at worst.

I can't imagine many people are dumb enough to take that risk/reward proposition.
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 1:57 pm
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What's the risk? Well, even if the odds of getting caught are low, fines and deportation at best, prison at worst.
  • A girlfriend in the US, who want to see his boyfriend in the EU - after one year.
  • A Gastarbeiter from Ukraine, who needs to work and earn money (and thus needs to travel to Poland).
  • A Swedish rich guy who needs to get out into the sun in Thailand.
I can continue the list.

​​​​​​It's a question of risk versus reward. What is the incentive for the average leisure traveler to use a fake travel document?
Well, technically it's not a fake document. It's real. It's not like a fake passport. It's just that the underlying data in that digital passport are wrong.

I can't imagine many people are dumb enough to take that risk/reward proposition.
You can already buy negative PCR test results in the middle of the day/in the middle of a busy street in Russia, Ukraine, Kenya and South Africa.
If there are so many sellers, there must be buyers.
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 2:04 pm
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Originally Posted by lobo411
​​​​​​...What's the risk? ...
They'll catch and cane you in Singapore.
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 2:08 pm
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They'll catch and cane you in Singapore.
So, Singapore does not have a criminal trial system?
So the prosecutor will have no problem proving that the offender has bribed a clinic boss in Bulgaria? I do not think it is so easy, esp. if that clinic administed real vaccinations to many people and took bribes from some other "patients".
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 2:57 pm
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Originally Posted by warakorn
So, Singapore does not have a criminal trial system?
So the prosecutor will have no problem proving that the offender has bribed a clinic boss in Bulgaria? I do not think it is so easy, esp. if that clinic administed real vaccinations to many people and took bribes from some other "patients".
This is what happens in France, vaccinations are mandatory so when you go get any vaccination the doctor normally asks something along the lines of 'Would you like the vaccination or would you like us to say you've had the vaccination?' Some doctors won't do it but it's a very common practice.
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 3:37 pm
  #163  
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Surely it's possible - likely even - that a small number of people will attempt to evade the system with forged credentials. That doesn't mean the whole system is a failure. If 99.99% are actually getting vaccinated, the .01% of fakers is going to be a very small health risk, especially if most people in the target country are also vaccinated.

Yellow fever vaccinations are just a piece of paper; anybody can fake one of those, but countries still have requirements in place because it's better from their perspective to have the overwhelming majority actually get vaccinated in order to travel there.

The situation with COVID is that most people want to get vaccinated, especially if they're going to travel. Vaccines are free and soon to be widely available in the US - why would I pay for a forged vaccine passport, when I could get the vaccine for free AND be protected against COVID?

Yes, access to vaccines is not evenly distributed right now, and I imagine that will be factored in when countries decide which other countries' vaccinated citizens to allow in.
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 3:55 pm
  #164  
 
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Originally Posted by warakorn
So, Singapore does not have a criminal trial system?
So the prosecutor will have no problem proving that the offender has bribed a clinic boss in Bulgaria? I do not think it is so easy, esp. if that clinic administed real vaccinations to many people and took bribes from some other "patients".
OK, so you spend a few weeks/months and a big fat pile of cash waiting for the prosecutor to fail to make his case. You won't be allowed to leave the country until your case has been resolved.

Is it worth spending weeks/months and a big fat pile of cash in a foreign country's criminal justice system, just to avoid getting a free shot of vaccine?
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Old Mar 17, 2021, 4:13 pm
  #165  
 
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Originally Posted by invisible
Enough?

Could you name which countries are allowing vaccinated people skip quarantine? I know two - Iceland and Georgia.
https://thepointsguy.com/guide/count...re-vaccinated/

Originally Posted by GUWonder
Some countries don't want test results and/or antibody tests to be part of such "immunity passports". That indicates that it has come up to include these kind of things in some "immunity passports".
Im not sure whether this thread defines "immunity passport" as "proof that a person has beaten Covid-19 by infection

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/o...passports.html

or as a vaccine passport as well.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/0...tration-476384
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