Mar 11, 2020, 10:13 am
Last edit by: Ocn Vw 1K
In order to reduce noise in the Coronavirus / Covid-19 : general fact-based reporting thread, and to create a central place to invite any member to ask a basic question about the impact of COVID-19 on travel, your moderators have decided to open this separate "lounge" thread for related discussion that isn't strictly fact-based reporting.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
•Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
•While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, don’t call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
•After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
•Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
•Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
•While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, don’t call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
•After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
•Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
COVID-19: Lounge thread for thoughts, concerns and questions
Jun 16, 2020, 9:03 am
#3136
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: En Route
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Posts: 6,798
a) those "young" people will go home and get their parents and grandparents sick, and they WILL die. If this was only about personal risk, you'd have a point. What about people who are at-risk but HAVE to go out, to get groceries, go to essential jobs, etc.? The more people are outside irresponsibly, the larger their risk is. Should all doctors with pre-existing conditions stay home?
b) It might become a seasonal thing - the benefit we'll have then is that, if it's like the seasonal flu, we'll have 1) population immunity to protect a lot of them, 2) a vaccine, 3) treatment, 4) non-overloaded ICU capability because not the entire population is at risk of getting it at once and 5) a good understanding of disease management
If you're not happy with the way the disease precautions are being handled here, feel free to move elsewhere, that seems to be everyone's favourite argument all the time.
You've stated your exact same argument like ten times now and it's been rebutted every single time.
b) It might become a seasonal thing - the benefit we'll have then is that, if it's like the seasonal flu, we'll have 1) population immunity to protect a lot of them, 2) a vaccine, 3) treatment, 4) non-overloaded ICU capability because not the entire population is at risk of getting it at once and 5) a good understanding of disease management
If you're not happy with the way the disease precautions are being handled here, feel free to move elsewhere, that seems to be everyone's favourite argument all the time.
You've stated your exact same argument like ten times now and it's been rebutted every single time.
Regarding B, 1) how do you expect us to get to herd immunity if you want everyone to stay home and not get sick? 2) there may never be a vaccine, should we stay locked up for years if that's what it takes? 3) there are several treatments currently being utilized, 4) the hospitals in the US were never overwhelmed at any point. This bogeyman argument that we will suddenly turn into peak crisis Italy doesn't seem to be founded on any numbers or science.
I can't move anywhere else in case you haven't noticed, can't even leave the country for vacation. If you want to be overly cautious, that's fine, but stop pretending your view is the only acceptable argument.
Jun 16, 2020, 9:37 am
#3137
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,336
Not a large load at once which gives clinical infection and potential to spiral out of control in ICU at any age.
Herd immunity can come with much less of a price over a longer time if we get smaller exposures over longer time frames. Masks reduce, not eliminate load, so with 6 feet of distancing where possible, help get more people exposed without severe clinical infection, if that is the only option to immunity. Masks reduce risk of getting that massive dose in a short period of time.
Jun 16, 2020, 9:52 am
#3138
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: En Route
Programs: Many
Posts: 6,798
So if we are playing the "long game" then to get immune we need small viral doses over long periods of time.
Not a large load at once which gives clinical infection and potential to spiral out of control in ICU at any age.
Herd immunity can come with much less of a price over a longer time if we get smaller exposures over longer time frames. Masks reduce, not eliminate load, so with 6 feet of distancing where possible, help get more people exposed without severe clinical infection, if that is the only option to immunity. Masks reduce risk of getting that massive dose in a short period of time.
Not a large load at once which gives clinical infection and potential to spiral out of control in ICU at any age.
Herd immunity can come with much less of a price over a longer time if we get smaller exposures over longer time frames. Masks reduce, not eliminate load, so with 6 feet of distancing where possible, help get more people exposed without severe clinical infection, if that is the only option to immunity. Masks reduce risk of getting that massive dose in a short period of time.
Jun 16, 2020, 10:20 am
#3139
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,336
Herd immunity worldwide is going to take a long time masks or no masks. Masks just get us there less painfully.
Jun 16, 2020, 10:20 am
#3140
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Herd immunity, absent a widespread vaccination campaign to get there, is still a far off pipe dream when it comes to this virus. The Swedish approach was a flop because the herd immunity and segregation-is-protection plan is a failed approach given huge numbers of “vulnerable” people don’t live in isolated bantustans in Sweden or just about anywhere else in the world that is on the beaten track for tourists and business travelers. Mask use by the public out and about in Sweden? Not more than 2% of people by measure of what I see at high traffic places in Stockholm and in southern Sweden.
Why can’t you move anywhere else or even leave the country for vacation? It’s not like all possibilities to leave or even vacation have been eliminated by most places where people can freely post to FT without concern about ending up locked up in a jail/prison for having a dissenting opinion from that of the governmental authorities. The options may be narrower, more financially costly or less ideal than before, but the options still exist for those able and willing to do so .... even if it’s in a different way than wanted earlier.
Why can’t you move anywhere else or even leave the country for vacation? It’s not like all possibilities to leave or even vacation have been eliminated by most places where people can freely post to FT without concern about ending up locked up in a jail/prison for having a dissenting opinion from that of the governmental authorities. The options may be narrower, more financially costly or less ideal than before, but the options still exist for those able and willing to do so .... even if it’s in a different way than wanted earlier.
Last edited by GUWonder; Jun 16, 2020 at 10:34 am
Jun 16, 2020, 11:04 am
#3141
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: En Route
Programs: Many
Posts: 6,798
Huh? You realize most countries are not allowing non-citizens/residents to enter right? I don't see 1. why you think it's valid to tell me I should leave the country because I don't agree with your argument or 2. how you don't understand that it is QUITE impossible to get to many places right now. For example, I have property in Europe and would LOVE to decamp now and spend the next few months over there, but pending an announcement on when Americans will be allowed in, I am not permitted to enter. This is the situation in much of the world.
Jun 16, 2020, 11:50 am
#3142
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Truth or Consequences, NM
Programs: HH Diamond, Marriott Titanium, Hertz President's Circle, UA Silver, Mobile Passport Unobtanium
Posts: 6,192
Herd immunity, absent a widespread vaccination campaign to get there, is still a far off pipe dream when it comes to this virus. The Swedish approach was a flop because the herd immunity and segregation-is-protection plan is a failed approach given huge numbers of “vulnerable” people don’t live in isolated bantustans in Sweden or just about anywhere else in the world that is on the beaten track for tourists and business travelers.
Now that I know the meaning, your use of the word to describe some place in Sweden is....interesting.
Jun 16, 2020, 1:08 pm
#3143
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Posts: 14,162
You never actually rebut the argument though, you just ignore portions of it. For example I have stated 100 times regarding "those 'young' people will go home and get their parents and grandparents sick, and they WILL die[,]" that at risk populations should be protected and people who live with or interact with those people should not go out. Other young healthy people who have no interactions with at risk people should be forced to stay home why? We are destroying the global economy why? The point is people should be allowed to DECIDE their own level of risk tolerance, we don't need the government to treat us like children and make our choices for us.
Regarding B, 1) how do you expect us to get to herd immunity if you want everyone to stay home and not get sick? 2) there may never be a vaccine, should we stay locked up for years if that's what it takes? 3) there are several treatments currently being utilized, 4) the hospitals in the US were never overwhelmed at any point. This bogeyman argument that we will suddenly turn into peak crisis Italy doesn't seem to be founded on any numbers or science.
I can't move anywhere else in case you haven't noticed, can't even leave the country for vacation. If you want to be overly cautious, that's fine, but stop pretending your view is the only acceptable argument.
Regarding B, 1) how do you expect us to get to herd immunity if you want everyone to stay home and not get sick? 2) there may never be a vaccine, should we stay locked up for years if that's what it takes? 3) there are several treatments currently being utilized, 4) the hospitals in the US were never overwhelmed at any point. This bogeyman argument that we will suddenly turn into peak crisis Italy doesn't seem to be founded on any numbers or science.
I can't move anywhere else in case you haven't noticed, can't even leave the country for vacation. If you want to be overly cautious, that's fine, but stop pretending your view is the only acceptable argument.
Jun 16, 2020, 1:09 pm
#3144
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Posts: 14,162
Jun 16, 2020, 1:22 pm
#3145
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Jun 16, 2020, 1:47 pm
#3146
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: En Route
Programs: Many
Posts: 6,798
and you seem to be saying that we should keep the world closed, destroy the global economy for no reason and tell young, healthy people who are essentially at no risk to stay home just because people over 65 need to stay home.
Jun 16, 2020, 2:02 pm
#3147
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: RNO
Programs: AA/DL/UA
Posts: 10,764
Quarantining everyone is stupid and it needs to stop.
Jun 16, 2020, 2:49 pm
#3148
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,079
So if we are playing the "long game" then to get immune we need small viral doses over long periods of time.
Not a large load at once which gives clinical infection and potential to spiral out of control in ICU at any age.
Herd immunity can come with much less of a price over a longer time if we get smaller exposures over longer time frames. Masks reduce, not eliminate load, so with 6 feet of distancing where possible, help get more people exposed without severe clinical infection, if that is the only option to immunity. Masks reduce risk of getting that massive dose in a short period of time.
Not a large load at once which gives clinical infection and potential to spiral out of control in ICU at any age.
Herd immunity can come with much less of a price over a longer time if we get smaller exposures over longer time frames. Masks reduce, not eliminate load, so with 6 feet of distancing where possible, help get more people exposed without severe clinical infection, if that is the only option to immunity. Masks reduce risk of getting that massive dose in a short period of time.
Jun 16, 2020, 2:58 pm
#3149
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Programs: Aeroplan, IHG, Enterprise, Avios, Nexus
Posts: 8,355
The vulnerable in society whether that vulnerability is medical, financial, mobility, societal etc. do have second class status in one way or another. People who are immunocompromised for example have to take steps to protect themselves that the rest of us do not. There needs to be a balance between protecting people and allowing those at lower risk to resume normal activities. Extreme positions on either end aren't viable over the longer term.
Jun 16, 2020, 3:12 pm
#3150
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Posts: 14,162
The global economy won't be destroyed -- trade has continued throughout the pandemic, though at lesser levels, even in many countries that have otherwise closed their borders. Chicken Little claims are not persuasive -- the world survived the Great Depression, which lasted for years -- less than four months is the blink of an eye. Note that the stock market rose over 500 points today -- people who know a lot more about money than you or me clearly don't believe your cries of calamity.
