Jun 24, 2020, 6:06 am
Last edit by: NewbieRunner
Moderator announcement - June 23, 2020:
Flyertalk’s moderators generally take a hands-off approach when it comes to judging the accuracy of members’ statements. While that’s fine for travel debates, a pandemic is clearly a more serious issue.
A meta-analysis of 172 studies that looked at various interventions to prevent the transmission of COVID-19, SARS and MERS from an infected person to people close to them, published in The Lancet on June 1, found that mask wearing significantly reduces the risk of viral transmission.
Given the science, the forum moderators are disallowing any further posts that debate whether or not masks should be worn. Posts that do so will be deleted and members subject to discipline.
Please also note, we do not allow posting of conspiracy theories or racist terms used in place of Covid-19, coronavirus, etc.
- Coronavirus and Travel moderator team
Flyertalk’s moderators generally take a hands-off approach when it comes to judging the accuracy of members’ statements. While that’s fine for travel debates, a pandemic is clearly a more serious issue.
A meta-analysis of 172 studies that looked at various interventions to prevent the transmission of COVID-19, SARS and MERS from an infected person to people close to them, published in The Lancet on June 1, found that mask wearing significantly reduces the risk of viral transmission.
Given the science, the forum moderators are disallowing any further posts that debate whether or not masks should be worn. Posts that do so will be deleted and members subject to discipline.
Please also note, we do not allow posting of conspiracy theories or racist terms used in place of Covid-19, coronavirus, etc.
- Coronavirus and Travel moderator team
Coronavirus and masks/face coverings [Consolidated thread]
May 5, 2020, 11:37 am
#511
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I'm definitely open to being positively surprised. It's just hard to have a lot of faith in common sense these days.
There's a story out today of a security guard getting murdered because he wouldn't let a woman into a store un-masked.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/us/mi...rnd/index.html
There's a story out today of a security guard getting murdered because he wouldn't let a woman into a store un-masked.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/us/mi...rnd/index.html
You want the worst anecdote of what happens in every city and town worldwide each day and you would never leave your house again.
May 5, 2020, 11:40 am
#512
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Karin Tegmark-Wisell who heads the microbiology section for the Swedish public health agency has said that recovered people who got the virus seemed to have had full or partial immunity from the virus after an infection but that the level of immunity appears to reduce over time. This may be a factor going into the consideration for whether or not Sweden will recommend mask using in public.
May 5, 2020, 12:38 pm
#513
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CDC lost a lot of time and credibility with the two reversals on mask wearing. Remember it wasn't just one reversal. The CDC's standing recommendation, going back nearly 13 years, was to recommend face coverings by the general public during an influenza pandemic.
Politicians and experts need to model the behavior every time they're seen. At their press conferences, during interviews, etc. There is no excuse for those people not to be doing so.
The emphasis needs to be on education and persuasion, even if there's not 100% use. Telling people they "have to" when they still disagree breeds resentment and minimal compliance. Educating people why they should leave their mask on (such as in an office setting to reduce fomite buildup on surfaces) works better than demanding they must wear a mask around people (and take them off in that same office setting as soon as no one else is around). The enemy of good enough is perfection.
Better quality masks and respirators need to be flowed down to consumers as quickly as possible. Cloth face coverings should be seen as an interim stopgap, not a permanent solution.
May 5, 2020, 1:05 pm
#514
Join Date: May 2000
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Posts: 3,317
Four points:
CDC lost a lot of time and credibility with the two reversals on mask wearing. Remember it wasn't just one reversal. The CDC's standing recommendation, going back nearly 13 years, was to recommend face coverings by the general public during an influenza pandemic.
Politicians and experts need to model the behavior every time they're seen. At their press conferences, during interviews, etc. There is no excuse for those people not to be doing so.
The emphasis needs to be on education and persuasion, even if there's not 100% use. Telling people they "have to" when they still disagree breeds resentment and minimal compliance. Educating people why they should leave their mask on (such as in an office setting to reduce fomite buildup on surfaces) works better than demanding they must wear a mask around people (and take them off in that same office setting as soon as no one else is around). The enemy of good enough is perfection.
Better quality masks and respirators need to be flowed down to consumers as quickly as possible. Cloth face coverings should be seen as an interim stopgap, not a permanent solution.
CDC lost a lot of time and credibility with the two reversals on mask wearing. Remember it wasn't just one reversal. The CDC's standing recommendation, going back nearly 13 years, was to recommend face coverings by the general public during an influenza pandemic.
Politicians and experts need to model the behavior every time they're seen. At their press conferences, during interviews, etc. There is no excuse for those people not to be doing so.
The emphasis needs to be on education and persuasion, even if there's not 100% use. Telling people they "have to" when they still disagree breeds resentment and minimal compliance. Educating people why they should leave their mask on (such as in an office setting to reduce fomite buildup on surfaces) works better than demanding they must wear a mask around people (and take them off in that same office setting as soon as no one else is around). The enemy of good enough is perfection.
Better quality masks and respirators need to be flowed down to consumers as quickly as possible. Cloth face coverings should be seen as an interim stopgap, not a permanent solution.
May 5, 2020, 1:11 pm
#515
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I 35 south bound, finally stopped
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Posts: 1,665
Wow. Somebody is postulating that immunity reduces over time based upon, at most, a 6 month timeline if you believe people were dying in China and Europe in 2019, and more likely a 2-3 month timeline for locations outside Wuhan. There is no real evidence that, if you got it, your immunity goes away. Or goes away as fast as 2-4 months. There has not been enough time to document this. Not buying this. If mutations were happening on a broad scale that might be a possibility, but no true evidence yet.
May 5, 2020, 1:12 pm
#516
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,336
Four points:
CDC lost a lot of time and credibility with the two reversals on mask wearing. Remember it wasn't just one reversal. The CDC's standing recommendation, going back nearly 13 years, was to recommend face coverings by the general public during an influenza pandemic.
Politicians and experts need to model the behavior every time they're seen. At their press conferences, during interviews, etc. There is no excuse for those people not to be doing so.
The emphasis needs to be on education and persuasion, even if there's not 100% use. Telling people they "have to" when they still disagree breeds resentment and minimal compliance. Educating people why they should leave their mask on (such as in an office setting to reduce fomite buildup on surfaces) works better than demanding they must wear a mask around people (and take them off in that same office setting as soon as no one else is around). The enemy of good enough is perfection.
Better quality masks and respirators need to be flowed down to consumers as quickly as possible. Cloth face coverings should be seen as an interim stopgap, not a permanent solution.
CDC lost a lot of time and credibility with the two reversals on mask wearing. Remember it wasn't just one reversal. The CDC's standing recommendation, going back nearly 13 years, was to recommend face coverings by the general public during an influenza pandemic.
Politicians and experts need to model the behavior every time they're seen. At their press conferences, during interviews, etc. There is no excuse for those people not to be doing so.
The emphasis needs to be on education and persuasion, even if there's not 100% use. Telling people they "have to" when they still disagree breeds resentment and minimal compliance. Educating people why they should leave their mask on (such as in an office setting to reduce fomite buildup on surfaces) works better than demanding they must wear a mask around people (and take them off in that same office setting as soon as no one else is around). The enemy of good enough is perfection.
Better quality masks and respirators need to be flowed down to consumers as quickly as possible. Cloth face coverings should be seen as an interim stopgap, not a permanent solution.
They are going to model their friends and influencers in their community, not politicians. I know NOBODY who stops what they are doing to watch Television news or "briefings". ABC world news has a record 10.5 million viewers? https://deadline.com/2020/05/abc-wor...us-1202926423/. Out of 330 million. Even lower share for the cable "news/opinion" channels.
If I waited for politicians to tell me what to do for the last 30 years....
When all you do is look in the rearview mirror all the time, how do you know what is coming next?
We need to wait for X but then when we get X then we need to wait for Y. It never ends.
We will all have ugly light blue surgical masks... when we have enough ugly light blue surgical masks. Who knows when and who cares?
What you call a stopgap is the most cost-effective solution to the problem that is readily available right now.
How many people did you teach the benefits of mask wearing today? I am at 46 right now for today, not counting any passive viewers I might have online.
How are you influencing your own circle of friends to understand that "building a wall" in front of our faces keeps undesirable stuff out of our spaces.
That hairdresser who was allowed to open with much criticism who demands a mask on her customers cut the R of this virus more than if she stayed at home.
Cloth can be superior to a poorly fitting N95 or one with a one-way valve, can cover wider areas of the face, easier to fit, and easier to wash.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/
May 5, 2020, 1:21 pm
#517
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,571
Today, I saw two cyclists wearing masks (they were not close to anyone) and someone walk down my street, where there were no other people out at all, wearing a mask who pulled it down to bite his fingernails before pulling it up again. I wonder aloud if those in the US who are militantly refusing to wear one are any worse for contagion than those who wear a mask badly. Weeks ago we all got swamped with infomercials telling us how to wash our hands properly, they need to do something similar for mask wearing.
May 5, 2020, 1:31 pm
#518
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Pacific Wonderland
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It all comes down to politics, doesn't it.
They are going to model their friends and influencers in their community, not politicians. I know NOBODY who stops what they are doing to watch Television news or "briefings". ABC world news has a record 10.5 million viewers? https://deadline.com/2020/05/abc-wor...us-1202926423/. Out of 330 million. Even lower share for the cable "news/opinion" channels.
If I waited for politicians to tell me what to do for the last 30 years....
When all you do is look in the rearview mirror all the time, how do you know what is coming next?
We need to wait for X but then when we get X then we need to wait for Y. It never ends.
We will all have ugly light blue surgical masks... when we have enough ugly light blue surgical masks. Who knows when and who cares?
What you call a stopgap is the most cost-effective solution to the problem that is readily available right now.
How many people did you teach the benefits of mask wearing today? I am at 46 right now for today, not counting any passive viewers I might have online.
How are you influencing your own circle of friends to understand that "building a wall" in front of our faces keeps undesirable stuff out of our spaces.
That hairdresser who was allowed to open with much criticism who demands a mask on her customers cut the R of this virus more than if she stayed at home.
Cloth can be superior to a poorly fitting N95 or one with a one-way valve, can cover wider areas of the face, easier to fit, and easier to wash.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/
They are going to model their friends and influencers in their community, not politicians. I know NOBODY who stops what they are doing to watch Television news or "briefings". ABC world news has a record 10.5 million viewers? https://deadline.com/2020/05/abc-wor...us-1202926423/. Out of 330 million. Even lower share for the cable "news/opinion" channels.
If I waited for politicians to tell me what to do for the last 30 years....
When all you do is look in the rearview mirror all the time, how do you know what is coming next?
We need to wait for X but then when we get X then we need to wait for Y. It never ends.
We will all have ugly light blue surgical masks... when we have enough ugly light blue surgical masks. Who knows when and who cares?
What you call a stopgap is the most cost-effective solution to the problem that is readily available right now.
How many people did you teach the benefits of mask wearing today? I am at 46 right now for today, not counting any passive viewers I might have online.
How are you influencing your own circle of friends to understand that "building a wall" in front of our faces keeps undesirable stuff out of our spaces.
That hairdresser who was allowed to open with much criticism who demands a mask on her customers cut the R of this virus more than if she stayed at home.
Cloth can be superior to a poorly fitting N95 or one with a one-way valve, can cover wider areas of the face, easier to fit, and easier to wash.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/
The longer term problem I see with cloth face coverings, particularly homemade ones, is that the quality of filtration is widely variable. Yes, you can achieve good results with proper design but you can also create something with minimal effectiveness, and more so when not well fitted. Again, as an immediate answer, it's much better than waiting. But it shouldn't be seen as a permanent solution either, imo.
May 5, 2020, 1:55 pm
#519
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
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Posts: 1,336
I'm not that far apart from what you're writing. I do agree that there are more influential influencers, but my point is the ones calling most for mandatory mask wear need to be modeling that behavior. Nor do I think mask wearing should wait for some perfect mask either (see my comment that perfect is the enemy of good enough).
The longer term problem I see with cloth face coverings, particularly homemade ones, is that the quality of filtration is widely variable. Yes, you can achieve good results with proper design but you can also create something with minimal effectiveness, and more so when not well fitted. Again, as an immediate answer, it's much better than waiting. But it shouldn't be seen as a permanent solution either, imo.
The longer term problem I see with cloth face coverings, particularly homemade ones, is that the quality of filtration is widely variable. Yes, you can achieve good results with proper design but you can also create something with minimal effectiveness, and more so when not well fitted. Again, as an immediate answer, it's much better than waiting. But it shouldn't be seen as a permanent solution either, imo.
A 600 count thread sheet is an excellent single layer.
2-3 layers of the other lower thread count sheets.
Less dense "rock concert" T-shirt needs more layers or a piece of paper towel in between them.
May 5, 2020, 3:21 pm
#520
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Posts: 15,027
Karin Tegmark-Wisell who heads the microbiology section for the Swedish public health agency has said that recovered people who got the virus seemed to have had full or partial immunity from the virus after an infection but that the level of immunity appears to reduce over time. This may be a factor going into the consideration for whether or not Sweden will recommend mask using in public.
Plenty of other viral infections need a regular shot update to stay immunized.
May 5, 2020, 4:20 pm
#521
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London, Sth Africa or LAS
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Posts: 1,858
<snip>
The longer term problem I see with cloth face coverings, particularly homemade ones, is that the quality of filtration is widely variable. Yes, you can achieve good results with proper design but you can also create something with minimal effectiveness, and more so when not well fitted. Again, as an immediate answer, it's much better than waiting. But it shouldn't be seen as a permanent solution either, imo.
The longer term problem I see with cloth face coverings, particularly homemade ones, is that the quality of filtration is widely variable. Yes, you can achieve good results with proper design but you can also create something with minimal effectiveness, and more so when not well fitted. Again, as an immediate answer, it's much better than waiting. But it shouldn't be seen as a permanent solution either, imo.
What's more Face Masks are easy to implement.
The big "if" is getting the governments and leaders to commit and promote the activity: "My mask is for you; your mask is for me".
It feels to me an easier 'sell' than social distancing (which has been remarkably well understood here in the UK).
Yet, from my own VC conversations, so many people simply can't get past thinking a Face Mask is there solely to stop virus getting in .... its really quite hard to get them to see that Face Masks are incredibly valuable to stop the virus getting out AND to admit/comprehend that they may unwittingly be the infected person.
Therefore, I think the current priority is education, education, education on Masks and recommending they be used, at a minimum, in high contact settings. I would think uptake would increase pretty strongly over time and in parallel people would naturally seek to graduate to better Masks (even if homemade) and better wearing disciplines.
May 5, 2020, 10:06 pm
#522
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 11,635
It all comes down to politics, doesn't it.
They are going to model their friends and influencers in their community, not politicians. I know NOBODY who stops what they are doing to watch Television news or "briefings". ABC world news has a record 10.5 million viewers? https://deadline.com/2020/05/abc-wor...us-1202926423/. Out of 330 million. Even lower share for the cable "news/opinion" channels.
If I waited for politicians to tell me what to do for the last 30 years....
When all you do is look in the rearview mirror all the time, how do you know what is coming next?
We need to wait for X but then when we get X then we need to wait for Y. It never ends.
We will all have ugly light blue surgical masks... when we have enough ugly light blue surgical masks. Who knows when and who cares?
What you call a stopgap is the most cost-effective solution to the problem that is readily available right now.
How many people did you teach the benefits of mask wearing today? I am at 46 right now for today, not counting any passive viewers I might have online.
How are you influencing your own circle of friends to understand that "building a wall" in front of our faces keeps undesirable stuff out of our spaces.
That hairdresser who was allowed to open with much criticism who demands a mask on her customers cut the R of this virus more than if she stayed at home.
Cloth can be superior to a poorly fitting N95 or one with a one-way valve, can cover wider areas of the face, easier to fit, and easier to wash.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/
They are going to model their friends and influencers in their community, not politicians. I know NOBODY who stops what they are doing to watch Television news or "briefings". ABC world news has a record 10.5 million viewers? https://deadline.com/2020/05/abc-wor...us-1202926423/. Out of 330 million. Even lower share for the cable "news/opinion" channels.
If I waited for politicians to tell me what to do for the last 30 years....
When all you do is look in the rearview mirror all the time, how do you know what is coming next?
We need to wait for X but then when we get X then we need to wait for Y. It never ends.
We will all have ugly light blue surgical masks... when we have enough ugly light blue surgical masks. Who knows when and who cares?
What you call a stopgap is the most cost-effective solution to the problem that is readily available right now.
How many people did you teach the benefits of mask wearing today? I am at 46 right now for today, not counting any passive viewers I might have online.
How are you influencing your own circle of friends to understand that "building a wall" in front of our faces keeps undesirable stuff out of our spaces.
That hairdresser who was allowed to open with much criticism who demands a mask on her customers cut the R of this virus more than if she stayed at home.
Cloth can be superior to a poorly fitting N95 or one with a one-way valve, can cover wider areas of the face, easier to fit, and easier to wash.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/
Mask wearing is a lost battle from an advertising and role-modelling perspective.
May 6, 2020, 1:12 am
#523
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: RNO
Programs: AA/DL/UA
Posts: 10,761
I think you are underestimating the effects of modeling by public figures, especially politicians, public health experts, and people on TV. Nobody wears a mask, other than reporters in the field. Do you know how many followers they have on twitter? Obama has 117 million, and Trump has 79 million. I haven't seen either one with a mask, nor have I ever seen Birx or Fauci wear one.
Mask wearing is a lost battle from an advertising and role-modelling perspective.
Mask wearing is a lost battle from an advertising and role-modelling perspective.
May 6, 2020, 6:28 am
#524
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,336
10-day asymptomatic contagious window in many people.
No guarantee you test at the front of that window and prevent all shedding with self-isolation.
10-15% false negative rate (depending on how painful the test is).
3 days to get results.
Lots of things can happen and that negative test that was really positive or has converted to positive while awaiting your results.
A good antibody test will help one day.
I think you are underestimating the effects of modeling by public figures, especially politicians, public health experts, and people on TV. Nobody wears a mask, other than reporters in the field. Do you know how many followers they have on twitter? Obama has 117 million, and Trump has 79 million. I haven't seen either one with a mask, nor have I ever seen Birx or Fauci wear one.
Mask wearing is a lost battle from an advertising and role-modelling perspective.
Mask wearing is a lost battle from an advertising and role-modelling perspective.
Yet, from my own VC conversations, so many people simply can't get past thinking a Face Mask is there solely to stop virus getting in .... its really quite hard to get them to see that Face Masks are incredibly valuable to stop the virus getting out AND to admit/comprehend that they may unwittingly be the infected person.
.
.
The majority of viral load is on surfaces not in the air in an indoor environment. The wall prevents it from leaving.
Or try this one...
Everyone knows herd immunity means the virus cannot jump to a new host. Takes a long time to get to 80% and you most likely will get it on the way there.
Masks for all means the virus cannot LEAVE the current host. And you likely don't catch it.
The math is the same.
Last edited by FlyBitcoin; May 6, 2020 at 6:33 am
May 6, 2020, 8:16 am
#525
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,336
I will get into the anecdotal evidence game.... Grocery store this AM:
Heavily criticized state for testing and response. Not going there with the red/blue distinctions since people are people and we are all on the same team.
Suburban county.
No mask requirement by store or locally.
88% of shoppers wearing masks. 40/45 people. The dude from the bread company stocking the shelves from his truck (not a store employee) was not as was one lady using a motorized cart.
If this happens everywhere and with good hand hygiene, we can move around at will and not increase cases.
Heavily criticized state for testing and response. Not going there with the red/blue distinctions since people are people and we are all on the same team.
Suburban county.
No mask requirement by store or locally.
88% of shoppers wearing masks. 40/45 people. The dude from the bread company stocking the shelves from his truck (not a store employee) was not as was one lady using a motorized cart.
If this happens everywhere and with good hand hygiene, we can move around at will and not increase cases.
