Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > Travel Health and Fitness > Coronavirus and travel
Reload this Page >

Coronavirus and masks/face coverings [Consolidated thread]

Old Jun 24, 2020, 6:06 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: NewbieRunner
Moderator announcement - June 23, 2020:

Flyertalks moderators generally take a hands-off approach when it comes to judging the accuracy of members statements. While thats fine for travel debates, a pandemic is clearly a more serious issue.

A meta-analysis of 172 studies that looked at various interventions to prevent the transmission of COVID-19, SARS and MERS from an infected person to people close to them, published in The Lancet on June 1, found that mask wearing significantly reduces the risk of viral transmission.

Given the science, the forum moderators are disallowing any further posts that debate whether or not masks should be worn. Posts that do so will be deleted and members subject to discipline.

Please also note, we do not allow posting of conspiracy theories or racist terms used in place of Covid-19, coronavirus, etc.

- Coronavirus and Travel moderator team
Print Wikipost

Coronavirus and masks/face coverings [Consolidated thread]

 
Old Mar 9, 2020, 5:30 am
  #151  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum
Posts: 228
Originally Posted by cupsandsaucers
The masks we see people wearing do not filter viruses. End of. They are entierly pointless. Be it from catching it yourself or spreading it to others. they are literally 0% effective.

You sure about this? A proper mask correctly fitted will certainly reduce the risk - and its all about reducing risk.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ading-covid-19
narvik, 747FC, nancypants and 1 others like this.
Billyfergus is offline  
Old Mar 9, 2020, 5:32 am
  #152  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 767
Originally Posted by Billyfergus
You sure about this? A proper mask correctly fitted will certainly reduce the risk - and its all about reducing risk.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ading-covid-19
Basically nobody who is not a medical professional is going to achieve proper use of the masks. And even medical professionals get it wrong an alarming amount of the time.
bobbytables is offline  
Old Mar 9, 2020, 5:55 am
  #153  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,179
Originally Posted by bobbytables
Basically nobody who is not a medical professional is going to achieve proper use of the masks. And even medical professionals get it wrong an alarming amount of the time.
but the same as everything, its a technique which can be learned if people can be bothered

IME the best at putting these things on properly are often the likes of cleaners and porters. The worst tend to be senior medical staff who perhaps feel they dont need to be taught
nancypants is offline  
Old Mar 9, 2020, 6:05 am
  #154  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 767
Originally Posted by nancypants
but the same as everything, its a technique which can be learned if people can be bothered

IME the best at putting these things on properly are often the likes of cleaners and porters. The worst tend to be senior medical staff who perhaps feel they dont need to be taught
That sounds right.

Absolutely, given some careful study people can learn this, but I dont think any aspect of the response so far has taken the form of slow down, study, learn, consider, respond. The masks are a placebo that people slap on their face when going outside or on a flight in order to feel better, but dont wear in any of the higher-risk situations (home, hotel, cafe/restaurant/bar, etc).
Badenoch and nancypants like this.
bobbytables is offline  
Old Mar 9, 2020, 8:54 am
  #155  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM
Posts: 6,553
Originally Posted by Billyfergus
You sure about this? A proper mask correctly fitted will certainly reduce the risk - and its all about reducing risk.

Totally agree....but:

Would like to add, and this has hardly ever been mentioned here: the use of goggles.
There's been numerous suggestions that infection can also occur through the eyes, and wearing a N95+ mask should really be complemented with the wearing of a face-shield or indirect-vented or non-vented eye goggles.

This story from late January, and there has been very little follow-up since, so it might not be as crucial as initially thought:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/arti...-saying-it-was
sdsearch and nancypants like this.
narvik is offline  
Old Mar 10, 2020, 1:05 pm
  #156  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NYC (LGA, JFK), CT
Programs: Delta Platinum, American Gold, JetBlue Mosaic 4, Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Explorist, Hilton Diamond,
Posts: 4,956
South Korea, and masks, versus the US

In the US, the official advice/doctrine is that wearing masks are useless and in many ways counterproductive for those that are healthy.

In South Korea, it seems like wearing a mask in large meeting spaces is expected / almost mandatory.

South Korea seems to have gotten its transmission under control - is the US in the wrong here?
Adelphos is offline  
Old Mar 10, 2020, 1:54 pm
  #157  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: PEK and BOS
Programs: BA - Blue
Posts: 4,552
Originally Posted by Adelphos
In the US, the official advice/doctrine is that wearing masks are useless and in many ways counterproductive for those that are healthy.

In South Korea, it seems like wearing a mask in large meeting spaces is expected / almost mandatory.

South Korea seems to have gotten its transmission under control - is the US in the wrong here?
I think this is a reasonable question, and indeed one that I actually raised with some colleagues this morning...

Early on, when it was clear the lockdown on Wuhan was botched (i.e. far too late), I communicated, indirectly via contacts/ colleagues to the highest levels I could that limiting onward transmission via scrupulous hand hygiene and possibly masks (to prevent onward transmission, NOT self-protection) may be effective mitigation processes...

For sure, COVID-19 is not being transmitted quite the same as influenza, and some combination or key measures taken in Asia are more effective than what's happening in Europe...masks could be part of it. Massive testing may also play a role. Probably civil obedience to public health directives is also important...

It's hard to do a single intervention trial in the midst of an emergency, so unless we e.g. get another couple of cruise ship outbreaks, and airlift masks to one and not to the other, it may be hard to tease out. OR, we get some really granular transmission information on a discrete outbreak (e.g. new importation to an island community or whatever).

tb
ExplorerWannabe likes this.
trueblu is online now  
Old Mar 10, 2020, 3:18 pm
  #158  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,500
Originally Posted by trueblu
I think this is a reasonable question, and indeed one that I actually raised with some colleagues this morning...

Early on, when it was clear the lockdown on Wuhan was botched (i.e. far too late), I communicated, indirectly via contacts/ colleagues to the highest levels I could that limiting onward transmission via scrupulous hand hygiene and possibly masks (to prevent onward transmission, NOT self-protection) may be effective mitigation processes...

For sure, COVID-19 is not being transmitted quite the same as influenza, and some combination or key measures taken in Asia are more effective than what's happening in Europe...masks could be part of it. Massive testing may also play a role. Probably civil obedience to public health directives is also important...

It's hard to do a single intervention trial in the midst of an emergency, so unless we e.g. get another couple of cruise ship outbreaks, and airlift masks to one and not to the other, it may be hard to tease out. OR, we get some really granular transmission information on a discrete outbreak (e.g. new importation to an island community or whatever).

tb
If we're comparing how COVID-19 is currently spreading in Asia versus elsewhere, I wonder whether some of the differences could be explained by the hypothesis that the corona virus has been floating around in many parts of Asia for a while, so that a significant fraction of the population has already acquired some immunity from low level infections that went unnoticed or were assumed to be colds or flu. Don't epidemics tend to quiet down or burn themselves out when the population has achieved enough herd immunity?

Of course, the masks also tend to prevent those with unnoticed or low level infections from spreading the virus further too even if they don't prevent the wearer from becoming sick.
MSPeconomist is offline  
Old Mar 10, 2020, 3:26 pm
  #159  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: PEK and BOS
Programs: BA - Blue
Posts: 4,552
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
If we're comparing how COVID-19 is currently spreading in Asia versus elsewhere, I wonder whether some of the differences could be explained by the hypothesis that the corona virus has been floating around in many parts of Asia for a while, so that a significant fraction of the population has already acquired some immunity from low level infections that went unnoticed or were assumed to be colds or flu. Don't epidemics tend to quiet down or burn themselves out when the population has achieved enough herd immunity?

Of course, the masks also tend to prevent those with unnoticed or low level infections from spreading the virus further too even if they don't prevent the wearer from becoming sick.
By phylogenetic sequencing, we can infer that it's extremely unlikely this jumped to humans before November 2019...

tb
trueblu is online now  
Old Mar 10, 2020, 3:30 pm
  #160  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,593
This looks like an Avon GSR. An excellent gas mask. Far better than the Russian/Soviet crap on eBay. Hope the filters are in date.

The iPad looks like its been eaten!
hugolover is offline  
Old Mar 10, 2020, 4:15 pm
  #161  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: PHX, ICN
Programs: OZ Diamond, Marriott Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 505
Anecdotal experience as a Seoul resident who flew to the US last week. I am not an expert in diseases, nor a medical professional.

Seoul residents wear masks FAR more often than Americans. Generally, that is because of pollution concerns, but there is always some illness awareness. From what I've read in the Korea Herald and Korean Times, SK CDC says that transmission is far easier by surface contact than coughing on someone (as in cough on a surface, and I touch the surface = I get the virus), though masks are a good precaution just in case you already have the virus.

Again, just from a layman point of view, the reason for SK preventing a mass outbreak beyond the super spreader in that church seems to be aggressive testing of potential contacts. Once someone was found to be infected, testing of everybody in their circle was rapid and comprehensive, allowing tracking of vectors quickly. So where China went for mass quarantines, Korea went for targeted containment. Seems to be working but not out of the woods yet.

Now that I am in the US for another week, I actually worry a little bit more about getting it here than in Seoul.* Testing protocol is a joke, and there's no comprehensive plan for nationwide coordinated tests. And given the nature of the US health care system, poor people with no or limited health insurance are not in a position to skip work when they only "may" be sick. That's not meant to be political, it's just a fact of life. As for travel, there were zero temperature checks at LAX when I flew directly from ICN, and no questioning of whether I had been to Daegu recently or not. It was just "Welcome to the USA, disperse across the country however you'd like!" In contrast, temperature checks have been standard at ICN for years.

So I think we will see a pretty large outbreak in the US, because the things SK did well - testing, a nationwide plan, and basic health care for all - aren't things that the US excels in. The masks are just a small part of the difference between the two countries approaches to the issue.

*Went out with a friend/client and a potential investor for his business. My friend was coughing up a storm all through dinner, and "covering his mouth" by making a circle with his hand and focusing all the phlegm in a cone right at anybody he was facing. Yet the investor was mocking me, no symptoms and coming from ~100 cases for the 10MM people in Seoul, for potentially exposing him. I swear if I catch the darn thing from my buddy and get quarantined when I get back to Korea I will burn his business to the ground when I can get back here next.
ExplorerWannabe likes this.
SightseeMC is online now  
Old Mar 10, 2020, 4:28 pm
  #162  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by Starship73
Official advice is to avoid wearing a mask unless you are ill yourself, in which case you should wear one to avoid infecting others
I think that is for the good of the government, not the people.

I think everyone should be wearing masks so that the people who are sick but not showing symptoms are not spewing out their germs. However, a big problem is that there aren't enough masks for 2 masks per day per person because that would be 14 billion masks per day, 600 million per day in the US.
A318neo is offline  
Old Mar 10, 2020, 4:41 pm
  #163  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by Adelphos
In the US, the official advice/doctrine is that wearing masks are useless and in many ways counterproductive for those that are healthy.

In South Korea, it seems like wearing a mask in large meeting spaces is expected / almost mandatory.

South Korea seems to have gotten its transmission under control - is the US in the wrong here?
I disagree with the US attitude. Wearing a mask if you are not sick won't harm anything. It may encourage you not to pick your nose. Wearing a mask if you are infected but haven't yet shown symptoms might reduce the spread. It doesn't increase the spread. A huge problem is that there aren't enough masks so authorities might be trying to conserve.
fairhsa, miles4CDG, narvik and 1 others like this.
A318neo is offline  
Old Mar 11, 2020, 12:18 am
  #164  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: ...
Programs: CX DM / SQ PPS / VN Platinum
Posts: 1,090
I disagree too. Its hard to buy the argument that everyone wearing masks doesn't help hinder the spread of a virus.
Jane's Addiction is offline  
Old Mar 11, 2020, 12:25 am
  #165  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 11,065
How the US handled this has been a joke [Redacted political comment]

For masks, there are arguments on both sides. There is definitely a huge shortage of masks everywhere so governments are not encouraging people to wear them.

I think if one takes the "any bit helps" attitude, then something is better than nothing - assuming the mask is clean, you don't touch the inside with your dirty hands when you put it on, etc. Even if it does not protect the virus, it serves as a reminder and reduces the chance of the person touching his/her face.

In Taiwan, they ran out of masks in late January so the government started rationing them as it ramped up production. It started with 2 every 7 days per person and is gradually increasing. They modified the national health care system to record your purchases (and they are only available at pharmacies to those with the national health care card). Now the "2.0" version is starting and one can even buy online and pickup at convenience stores, which are all over Taiwan.

Since visitors don't have the national healthcare card and can't get masks, they are now thinking about giving people some free ones when they enter Taiwan.

Last edited by NewbieRunner; Mar 11, 2020 at 1:32 am
username is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.