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Coronavirus and masks/face coverings [Consolidated thread]

Old Jun 24, 2020, 6:06 am
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Coronavirus and masks/face coverings [Consolidated thread]

 
Old Jun 27, 2020, 6:36 pm
  #1576  
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More mask data:




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Old Jun 27, 2020, 7:02 pm
  #1577  
 
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Originally Posted by GMTmin8
4) Have a handy container to drop the mask into so not to contaminate other objects. Straps fall outside the container and not into the mask. (DL's square Flight Food box is the perfect size). Or use a fresh mask.
Not sure I understand why used masks are being treated like they are biological weapons (I mean the general public and not doctors dealing with actual Covid-19 patients). Any other object can be exactly as contaminated with the virus - your clothes, your mobile phone, your wallet, your sunglasses, basically anything that can be exposed outside.

The chance that the mask caught enough virus particles to infect you is low (otherwise, everyone without a mask would have been infected a long time ago). The chance that enough of these particles come off the mask, end up on your fingers, migrate from your fingers inside your body and infect you is minuscule. They are (supposedly) tiny particles, so they do not come off from the slightest shake, but are captured inside the filter.
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Old Jun 27, 2020, 7:44 pm
  #1578  
 
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Originally Posted by cockpitvisit
Not sure I understand why used masks are being treated like they are biological weapons (I mean the general public and not doctors dealing with actual Covid-19 patients)....
Good point raised.

In choosing to fly during the pandemic, I made the assumption that anyone around me could have COVID and all have poor health literacy/understanding (especially in regards to mask use).

It only took 10-15 minutes of my time during a whole day of travel.
It only took packing enough santizer.

The care taken is about risk mitigation.
The way I see it, better 95% than 50% (percentages are made up to make a point) risk reduction

Last edited by GMTmin8; Jun 27, 2020 at 8:26 pm Reason: make my point clearer
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Old Jun 27, 2020, 8:55 pm
  #1579  
 
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Of note, I bought these masks for another reason figuring the valve would preclude them for COVID masking. Turns out there are two layers of fabric on the inner surface which create a pocket for the activated charcoal filter. So even tho has valve, there are 3 or 4 (with activated charcoal) layers before breath exhausts through the valve, which is different from the other couple of valve masks I've seen. So, thinking they would be okay as a COVID face covering? Haven't tried them yet as didn't buy for me.

Amazon Amazon
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 6:49 am
  #1580  
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Originally Posted by FlyBitcoin
Put a loose ear loop mask or fabric covering on over the mask that covers the valve exhaust area.

Viral load goes downward onto your hands, keyboards, countertops to be picked up in greater density by others' hands rubbing eyes.
Viral load aerosols are stirred up by your own movements propelling them forward and upward into the air.

Plenty of N95's without valves. or just cover the valve. Very simple. Cannot let viral load free into environment in any direction.

How about running an exhaust tube from the valve down your back and into your pants? That would work.

Viral load in the environment that originates at all in air is to be avoided in tight public spaces. Period. Valves concentrate viral load and propel into air.

ADDENDUM: The masks with valves being sold to US HCW's are all being covered with a secondary paper mask over the valve as part of the mask prolongation protocol.
Again no data. Wearing a surgical mask where do you think the exhaled air goes? Out the sides in all directions.
The paper mask worn over is used to throw away after usage and not the N95
The problem with this virus is people like above are spreading their beliefs and no data
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 7:10 am
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Originally Posted by knownothing
Again no data. Wearing a surgical mask where do you think the exhaled air goes? Out the sides in all directions.
The paper mask worn over is used to throw away after usage and not the N95
The problem with this virus is people like above are spreading their beliefs and no data
I don't want to discuss your particular bias, but I do want to point out that there is plenty of data on air dispersion using both surgical and N95 masks.

I highly recommend the following article

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3516468/

I copied just one diagram from the article, pasted below.



Even a good N95 mask has sideways and down dispersion. However, when compared to no mask, both do a significantly better job of reducing dispersion of particles. From the discussion portion of the above article

"Surgical masks appeared to be as effective as N95 respirators for respiratory protection of HCWs during the routine care of patients hospitalized with seasonal influenza, [32], [33] and were also as effective in reducing production of infectious aerosols during coughing when worn by influenza patients [34]. The incidence of nosocomial pandemic H1N1 infections appeared to remain low in staff members using surgical masks in a hospital despite admitting substantial numbers of pandemic H1N1 patients [35]. A systematic review has shown that the surgical masks perform similar to the N95 masks in reducing the transmission of respiratory viruses but the latter are more expensive, uncomfortable and irritating to the skin [36]. Recently, Noti et al have shown that about two-thirds of influenza virus particles from a coughing manikin (in a simulated patient room with a high-efficiency particulate air filter) were blocked from entering the mouth by surgical masks or N95 masks that were not properly fitted whereas over 99% of infectious virus particles were blocked by a well-fitted N95 mask on the breathing simulator [37]. Nevertheless it seems more practical for the HCWs to wear the surgical masks as a preventive measure against nosocomial infections in view of its reasonable filtering capacity, better comfort, and higher compliance."

I cannot say it any better
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 7:12 am
  #1582  
 
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RE: valves on N95 (and better) masks

Some seem to think that ALL expelled breath exits through the valve, which IS NOT THE CASE.
Only a portion of the expelled breath exits the valve; it is meant to aid in getting rid of heat and moisture.
It would be interesting to know exactly HOW MUCH of the expelled breath exits the valve vs. the filter media and under what conditions.
My best guess is that ~50% of expelled breath exits the valve under normal breathing conditions.

And although I have no scientific data to back me up, I wouldn't be surprised if an N95 (or higher) mask with
a valve is still much better overall than those thin bandanas I keep seeing (especially if they are worn with the wearers' nose exposed! )

I now [almost] exclusively use P100 masks that have a valve (there is no restriction regarding valves where we are).
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 7:19 am
  #1583  
 
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Originally Posted by radonc1
..... but I do want to point out that there is plenty of data on air dispersion using both surgical and N95 masks.

I highly recommend the following article

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3516468/

I copied just one diagram from the article, pasted below.
Interesting article, although I would like to point out that it seems to concentrate on COUGHING only, and not NORMAL BREATHING.
I'd be also interested in the effects of normal breathing.

Question: Have there been studies that delve into transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in regards to coughing vs. normal breathing by an infected person?
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 7:49 am
  #1584  
 
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My biggest pet peeve are those people who wear mask covering their mouth only. What is wrong with these people? Urrghh
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 9:30 am
  #1585  
 
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Originally Posted by narvik
Interesting article, although I would like to point out that it seems to concentrate on COUGHING only, and not NORMAL BREATHING.
I'd be also interested in the effects of normal breathing.

Question: Have there been studies that delve into transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in regards to coughing vs. normal breathing by an infected person?
Now even if 50% of the exhale leaves through the valve, then how much will velocity increase when sending 50% of the volume through only 3% of the mask surface? A12x increase in velocity approximately. Cover the valves until we prove otherwise.

Normal breathing is not a high risk behavior unless you are in very close contact with an infected individual for a significant time.
Talking sheds a lot more viral load.
Talking loudly, shouting, singing sheds way more. (sporting events, loud bars)
Coughing sheds the most with the most velocity.

Here is a summary: https://www.govtech.com/em/emergency...explained.html
(note, the viral load numbers are oversimplified, and I think it takes more to get a true symptomatic infection than stated below based on more recent work, but you can't count your exposure, so....)

Remember the formula: Successful Infection = Exposure to Virus x Time

If a person coughs or sneezes, those 200,000,000 viral particles go everywhere. Some virus hangs in the air, some falls into surfaces, most falls to the ground. So if you are face-to-face with a person, having a conversation, and that person sneezes or coughs straight at you, it's pretty easy to see how it is possible to inhale 1,000 virus particles and become infected.

But even if that cough or sneeze was not directed at you, some infected droplets--the smallest of small--can hang in the air for a few minutes, filling every corner of a modest sized room with infectious viral particles. All you have to do is enter that room within a few minutes of the cough/sneeze and take a few breaths and you have potentially received enough virus to establish an infection.

But with general breathing, 20 copies per minute into the environment, even if every virus ended up in your lungs, you would need 1000 copies divided by 20 copies per minute = 50 minutes.

Speaking increases the release of respiratory droplets about 10 fold; ~200 copies of virus per minute. Again, assuming every virus is inhaled, it would take ~5 minutes of speaking face-to-face to receive the required dose.

The exposure to virus x time formula is the basis of contact tracing. Anyone you spend greater than 10 minutes with in a face-to-face situation is potentially infected. Anyone who shares a space with you (say an office) for an extended period is potentially infected. This is also why it is critical for people who are symptomatic to stay home. Your sneezes and your coughs expel so much virus that you can infect a whole room of people.
And this is why airplanes now are not as risky as one might think. No packed cabins so people are not talking. No alcohol so they are not talking loud. Mandatory masks even if compliance is not perfect, and good, filtered airflow with fresh air exchanges.

Planes become more problematic when there is more talking, eating, drinking, and alcohol.
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 10:43 am
  #1586  
 
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Originally Posted by Taikucing
My biggest pet peeve are those people who wear mask covering their mouth only. What is wrong with these people? Urrghh
Well, it's usually people who are forced to wear a mask against their will, so they do something that will be accepted by their employer or by authorities, while also allowing them to breathe properly. Cultural norms vary. I've been to places where it's a huge no-no and I've also been to places where it's a standard and most people wear it that way, because they see masks merely as a formality and this is considered an acceptable way to tick the box.
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 10:54 am
  #1587  
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For passengers to use the Copenhagen airport, masks are mandatory in the terminal buildings.
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 10:57 am
  #1588  
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Originally Posted by FlyBitcoin
Now even if 50% of the exhale leaves through the valve, then how much will velocity increase when sending 50% of the volume through only 3% of the mask surface? A12x increase in velocity approximately. Cover the valves until we prove otherwise.

Normal breathing is not a high risk behavior unless you are in very close contact with an infected individual for a significant time.
Talking sheds a lot more viral load.
Talking loudly, shouting, singing sheds way more. (sporting events, loud bars)
Coughing sheds the most with the most velocity.

Here is a summary: https://www.govtech.com/em/emergency...explained.html
(note, the viral load numbers are oversimplified, and I think it takes more to get a true symptomatic infection than stated below based on more recent work, but you can't count your exposure, so....)



And this is why airplanes now are not as risky as one might think. No packed cabins so people are not talking. No alcohol so they are not talking loud. Mandatory masks even if compliance is not perfect, and good, filtered airflow with fresh air exchanges.

Planes become more problematic when there is more talking, eating, drinking, and alcohol.

Are these numbers without a mask covering the nose and mouth (no valve)?
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 11:29 am
  #1589  
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Originally Posted by Taikucing
My biggest pet peeve are those people who wear mask covering their mouth only. What is wrong with these people? Urrghh
The flip side of this is at least they are wearing a mask over their mouths, where presumably you are going to be dispersing more respiratory droplets further.
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Old Jun 28, 2020, 11:34 am
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Originally Posted by the810
Well, it's usually people who are forced to wear a mask against their will, so they do something that will be accepted by their employer or by authorities, while also allowing them to breathe properly. Cultural norms vary. I've been to places where it's a huge no-no and I've also been to places where it's a standard and most people wear it that way, because they see masks merely as a formality and this is considered an acceptable way to tick the box.
People in East Asia know exactly what they are doing. They live closer to the source than we do. They understand that a viral droplet on a mask Is one less that leaves or enters the face.

Also, if masks were "a formality" as you so ignorantly assume, then one would think the in the last 20 years Asians would be at the forefront of designer masks that match wardrobes or otherwise have a dual function as a fashion accessory since they all must comply, so why not make the best of it. Nope, they wear the ugly paper ones by choice because they understand the benefits and the threat at hand, not because it is part of the culture at all. If there was no threat, they would drop them in a heartbeat.
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