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Coronavirus / COVID-19 : general fact-based reporting
#5311
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Also, seems like the European/Eastern USA strain has led to the post-inflammatory autoimmune sequelae in children compared to the original strain.
However, these guys, who are probably at the forefront of mutation analysis seem to think that the differences in outcomes can still be explained by response and social measures in the face of infection. They still claim there is one "strain" and one clinical infection.
https://nextstrain.org/narratives/nc...rep/2020-05-15
It is hotly debated and both sides have some great anecdotal evidence.
Closed environments facilitate transmission 18x compared to open air environments.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.20029272v2
Yet all the media is doing this weekend is showing people congregated outside. No cameras indoors at night where the transmission really occurs.
However, these guys, who are probably at the forefront of mutation analysis seem to think that the differences in outcomes can still be explained by response and social measures in the face of infection. They still claim there is one "strain" and one clinical infection.
https://nextstrain.org/narratives/nc...rep/2020-05-15
It is hotly debated and both sides have some great anecdotal evidence.
Closed environments facilitate transmission 18x compared to open air environments.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.20029272v2
Yet all the media is doing this weekend is showing people congregated outside. No cameras indoors at night where the transmission really occurs.
Last edited by NewbieRunner; May 26, 2020 at 5:19 pm Reason: Merge consecutive posts by same member
#5312
Join Date: Mar 2005
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I believe our first Covid bail-out bill was to the tune of 2 Trillion dollars and the subsequent suggested bills may be even greater. If a vaccine can be produced rapidly and allow economic recovery sooner, then the money saved by not having to extend life support services to the economy will far exceed the ante put down to produce a vaccine more rapidly.
A fail costs a few billion. A bailout cost trillions.
#5313
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It depends on what one considers "a lot" of money.
I believe our first Covid bail-out bill was to the tune of 2 Trillion dollars and the subsequent suggested bills may be even greater. If a vaccine can be produced rapidly and allow economic recovery sooner, then the money saved by not having to extend life support services to the economy will far exceed the ante put down to produce a vaccine more rapidly.
A fail costs a few billion. A bailout cost trillions.
I believe our first Covid bail-out bill was to the tune of 2 Trillion dollars and the subsequent suggested bills may be even greater. If a vaccine can be produced rapidly and allow economic recovery sooner, then the money saved by not having to extend life support services to the economy will far exceed the ante put down to produce a vaccine more rapidly.
A fail costs a few billion. A bailout cost trillions.
It's not like the "contagions" of financial crises (1990's Asia and 2008 US) that hurt the origin nation more than world markets.
IF, and it remains an "if", the world can resist a global inflationary spiral, AND we don't see a mass distrust of fiat currency with moves into gold (hasn't happened at all yet), then the world financial order remains relatively unchanged and unscathed. This is why "printing money" here vs printing money when nobody else is printing money are two completely different problems. it is a tightrope to walk, but as much as most of us hate printing money, this may be a time when it conveys less damage (on a global stage) than the alternative of not doing so.
#5314
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Closed environments facilitate transmission 18x compared to open air environments.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.20029272v2
Yet all the media is doing this weekend is showing people congregated outside. No cameras indoors at night where the transmission really occurs.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.20029272v2
Yet all the media is doing this weekend is showing people congregated outside. No cameras indoors at night where the transmission really occurs.
there was also a picture of stands packed at a race car event in NC.
Then you had a case like this:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/23/us/ar...rus/index.html
Pool was presumably outside but people still get close, talk to each other in close distances, probably drinking so if they were inclined to socially distance, how long did they try to maintain it once the drinks started being consumed?
#5315
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Silicon wasteland
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It depends on what one considers "a lot" of money.
I believe our first Covid bail-out bill was to the tune of 2 Trillion dollars and the subsequent suggested bills may be even greater. If a vaccine can be produced rapidly and allow economic recovery sooner, then the money saved by not having to extend life support services to the economy will far exceed the ante put down to produce a vaccine more rapidly.
A fail costs a few billion. A bailout cost trillions.
I believe our first Covid bail-out bill was to the tune of 2 Trillion dollars and the subsequent suggested bills may be even greater. If a vaccine can be produced rapidly and allow economic recovery sooner, then the money saved by not having to extend life support services to the economy will far exceed the ante put down to produce a vaccine more rapidly.
A fail costs a few billion. A bailout cost trillions.
#5316
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It depends on what one considers "a lot" of money.
I believe our first Covid bail-out bill was to the tune of 2 Trillion dollars and the subsequent suggested bills may be even greater. If a vaccine can be produced rapidly and allow economic recovery sooner, then the money saved by not having to extend life support services to the economy will far exceed the ante put down to produce a vaccine more rapidly.
A fail costs a few billion. A bailout cost trillions.
I believe our first Covid bail-out bill was to the tune of 2 Trillion dollars and the subsequent suggested bills may be even greater. If a vaccine can be produced rapidly and allow economic recovery sooner, then the money saved by not having to extend life support services to the economy will far exceed the ante put down to produce a vaccine more rapidly.
A fail costs a few billion. A bailout cost trillions.
But compared to the cash flow a startup like Moderna is used to?
Or even larger Pharma like Astra Zeneca or J&J, it's probably a lot of money in a short period of time for a single project.
I'm not criticizing the approach, yet.
But there are political incentives to raise expectations, which may not be supported by science or at least history.
Soumya Swaminathan, chief scientist for the World Health Organization, believes an optimistic scenario is a vaccine produced in the “tens of millions” next year, which would be mainly distributed to healthcare workers, and far larger volumes in 2022. To inoculate the world and defeat Covid-19 could take four to five years, she says.
We have no “crystal ball” to tell the future, she told the Financial Times. “It depends how the virus behaves: whether it mutates, whether it becomes more or less virulent, more or less transmittable.”
Peter Hotez, a professor at the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston who is developing a vaccine, says the US president sees vaccines as a “manufacturing problem,” like making enough ventilators or tests.
“Manufacturing is not the hurdle. It’s taking the time to collect enough efficacy and safety data,” he says. “The Operation Warp Speed language coming out of the White House and biotechs and pharma companies [saying] that they will have a vaccine by the fall—or in weeks or days—does so much damage.”
We have no “crystal ball” to tell the future, she told the Financial Times. “It depends how the virus behaves: whether it mutates, whether it becomes more or less virulent, more or less transmittable.”
Peter Hotez, a professor at the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston who is developing a vaccine, says the US president sees vaccines as a “manufacturing problem,” like making enough ventilators or tests.
“Manufacturing is not the hurdle. It’s taking the time to collect enough efficacy and safety data,” he says. “The Operation Warp Speed language coming out of the White House and biotechs and pharma companies [saying] that they will have a vaccine by the fall—or in weeks or days—does so much damage.”
Obviously we all want several of the vaccines to succeed, sooner than later. The optimist view:
Vaccines are usually developed over many years and even decades. A 2013 paper from Dutch scientists says the average vaccine took 10.71 years and had only a 6 per cent success rate from start to finish. Each stage is an experiment: from the small phase one trials happening now to the large phase three trials needed for regulatory approval.
There are good reasons to believe this time will be quicker. The Covid-19 vaccines benefit from groundwork done for the Sars and Mers coronaviruses even if they were never approved, says Walter Orenstein, a professor at the Emory Vaccine Center in Atlanta.
New technologies are fueling the hope for a faster process. Analysts from Morgan Stanley estimate that Moderna’s vaccine has a 65 percent chance of success. They believe that before the end of the year we could see vaccines from Pfizer and their German partner BioNTech, and AstraZeneca and Oxford university.
But advances like the messengerRNA programming used by Moderna, BioNTech and another German company, CureVac, have never been used to create products approved by a regulator. The technique translates a protein from the virus into human cells and shows it to the B cells that secrete antibodies.
The pandemic has pushed governments and companies to pour money into Covid-19 vaccines, even if there has been a lack of global cooperation. Peter Bach, director of the Center for Health Policy and Outcomes at Memorial Sloan Kettering, says it helps that there are so many horses in this race.
There are good reasons to believe this time will be quicker. The Covid-19 vaccines benefit from groundwork done for the Sars and Mers coronaviruses even if they were never approved, says Walter Orenstein, a professor at the Emory Vaccine Center in Atlanta.
New technologies are fueling the hope for a faster process. Analysts from Morgan Stanley estimate that Moderna’s vaccine has a 65 percent chance of success. They believe that before the end of the year we could see vaccines from Pfizer and their German partner BioNTech, and AstraZeneca and Oxford university.
But advances like the messengerRNA programming used by Moderna, BioNTech and another German company, CureVac, have never been used to create products approved by a regulator. The technique translates a protein from the virus into human cells and shows it to the B cells that secrete antibodies.
The pandemic has pushed governments and companies to pour money into Covid-19 vaccines, even if there has been a lack of global cooperation. Peter Bach, director of the Center for Health Policy and Outcomes at Memorial Sloan Kettering, says it helps that there are so many horses in this race.
If a vaccine proves safe, there will still be questions about its effectiveness. Paul Stoffels, chief scientific officer at Johnson & Johnson, says one of the biggest questions is whether it will stop infection or just the disease—or even, like the flu shot, only prevent the most severe symptoms of the disease.
“It would be good if it protects against both,” he says. “If you can prevent infection, it prevents spread going forward in the community.”
Before a vaccine is produced, developments in treatments—such as antivirals and antibodies—may help improve outcomes for Covid-19 patients. A vaccine that is only 60 or 70 per cent effective could still be approved by the regulator and have a significant impact on the spread of the disease, says Stéphane Bancel, Moderna chief executive.
He is “cautiously optimistic” he will see efficacy in the large and final phase three trial—but does not know if it will be 70 or 95 per cent. “Even if it was 70 per cent effective it would reduce tremendously the problem, which is that the virus is so contagious,” he says.
Political leaders will declare victory if a vaccine maker manages to move safely at speeds more suited to science fiction. However, the mass inoculation that could speed up the return to normal life is further away. The first vaccines will probably be given to healthcare workers who will be studied closely, as if they were still part of a trial.
Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, says we must remember there is still a chance we do not get a vaccine at all. It is not a “slam dunk,” he says.
He is concerned that people are not taking other public health measures to stop the spread because of the “optimism and enthusiasm” about a vaccine.
“People will just assume it’s like a Hollywood movie and at the very last minute, someone will swoop in their helicopter with a new vaccine that was only made a day ago. And the whole world is saved,” Mr. Osterholm says. “It’s human behavior. When you’re faced with such a serious challenge, you want any good news you can get.”
“It would be good if it protects against both,” he says. “If you can prevent infection, it prevents spread going forward in the community.”
Before a vaccine is produced, developments in treatments—such as antivirals and antibodies—may help improve outcomes for Covid-19 patients. A vaccine that is only 60 or 70 per cent effective could still be approved by the regulator and have a significant impact on the spread of the disease, says Stéphane Bancel, Moderna chief executive.
He is “cautiously optimistic” he will see efficacy in the large and final phase three trial—but does not know if it will be 70 or 95 per cent. “Even if it was 70 per cent effective it would reduce tremendously the problem, which is that the virus is so contagious,” he says.
Political leaders will declare victory if a vaccine maker manages to move safely at speeds more suited to science fiction. However, the mass inoculation that could speed up the return to normal life is further away. The first vaccines will probably be given to healthcare workers who will be studied closely, as if they were still part of a trial.
Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, says we must remember there is still a chance we do not get a vaccine at all. It is not a “slam dunk,” he says.
He is concerned that people are not taking other public health measures to stop the spread because of the “optimism and enthusiasm” about a vaccine.
“People will just assume it’s like a Hollywood movie and at the very last minute, someone will swoop in their helicopter with a new vaccine that was only made a day ago. And the whole world is saved,” Mr. Osterholm says. “It’s human behavior. When you’re faced with such a serious challenge, you want any good news you can get.”
#5317
Join Date: Dec 2018
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Posts: 1,336
We see pictures of people outside at lake resorts and they're pretty close to each other, nobody wearing masks.
there was also a picture of stands packed at a race car event in NC.
Then you had a case like this:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/23/us/ar...rus/index.html
Pool was presumably outside but people still get close, talk to each other in close distances, probably drinking so if they were inclined to socially distance, how long did they try to maintain it once the drinks started being consumed?
there was also a picture of stands packed at a race car event in NC.
Then you had a case like this:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/23/us/ar...rus/index.html
Pool was presumably outside but people still get close, talk to each other in close distances, probably drinking so if they were inclined to socially distance, how long did they try to maintain it once the drinks started being consumed?
Yet, some idiots in the media will elevate their "photojournalism" to capturing that very moment the virus transfers from person to person. They will forget that people still spend half of their time indoors even in the best of weather. And that viral load on the sand is left behind and baked away, but viral load on the kitchen counter at home remains from the morning.
We will see, but I remain much more wary of groups indoors compared to outside in the sun.
#5318
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The point is, if they test positive for this virus next week, then there is an 18x higher chance they caught it and spread it in the car ride, in bed together, or crammed into that beach house, than they did outdoors day in, day out. These are units of people who are not exclusively sharing time and space at the beach. They share it off the beach as well.
Yet, some idiots in the media will elevate their "photojournalism" to capturing that very moment the virus transfers from person to person. They will forget that people still spend half of their time indoors even in the best of weather. And that viral load on the sand is left behind and baked away, but viral load on the kitchen counter at home remains from the morning.
We will see, but I remain much more wary of groups indoors compared to outside in the sun.
Yet, some idiots in the media will elevate their "photojournalism" to capturing that very moment the virus transfers from person to person. They will forget that people still spend half of their time indoors even in the best of weather. And that viral load on the sand is left behind and baked away, but viral load on the kitchen counter at home remains from the morning.
We will see, but I remain much more wary of groups indoors compared to outside in the sun.
#5319
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Posts: 1,336
I don't think all "outside" is the same. E.g. going for a jog/walk your risk will be very low. congregating outside for 1/2 hours at a time in a densely packed group? That number has gotta be much closer to "indoors" than generic "outdoors". Would be good to see that breakdown eventually.
#5320
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When you see dozens of people outside around a pool or clustered around tables which aren't too far apart, it's only a handful of them who are riding in cars together or spending time in the same living quarters.
It's more likely that a family or a group of friends go to these events, then come close to strangers, then infect each other, no?
Or do you think any infections arising from these events occur because these groups of 4 or 5 people already had one spreader and they mainly spread it within this group of 4 or 5 but not to strangers outside that group?
It's more likely that a family or a group of friends go to these events, then come close to strangers, then infect each other, no?
Or do you think any infections arising from these events occur because these groups of 4 or 5 people already had one spreader and they mainly spread it within this group of 4 or 5 but not to strangers outside that group?
#5321
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,353
Closed environments facilitate transmission 18x compared to open air environments.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.20029272v2
Yet all the media is doing this weekend is showing people congregated outside. No cameras indoors at night where the transmission really occurs.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.20029272v2
Yet all the media is doing this weekend is showing people congregated outside. No cameras indoors at night where the transmission really occurs.
It's true that some of the spread vectors outside may be lower -- touching the picnic table in the full sun that an infected person coughed on 20 minutes ago might be safer than touching the plastic packaging that the same person coughed on (perhaps through their vented N95) in the grocery store. And people often have more *opportunity* to space out in large outdoor spaces than in the aisles of the store, whether they do so or not. But talking to someone 2 feet away is likely the same risk as it is indoors (yes, made better or worse by the wind at a particular point); I don't think UV rays can kill the virus in traveling droplets in seconds, can they?
I agree with prioritizing indoor infection transmission, but I don't think it's safe to ignore outdoor and give people the impression they touch/eat with/do whatever they want as long as it's not under a roof.
#5322
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Dartmouth professor of biology talks about different infection scenarios, specifically exposure quantity (viral load) and time. She assumes 1000 viral particles as being sufficient dose for infection and talks about how different types of scenarios produce different levels of exposure.
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the...hem-avoid-them
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the...hem-avoid-them
#5323
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UCSF has a series of lecture and discussions on
Guidance for Parks as an Essential Service During a Pandemic
The material should be relevant to beach gathering. It seems that the main concerns of such outdoor activities are the use of bathrooms.
Guidance for Parks as an Essential Service During a Pandemic
The material should be relevant to beach gathering. It seems that the main concerns of such outdoor activities are the use of bathrooms.
#5324
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: Continental Onepass, Hilton, Marriott, USAir and now UA
Posts: 6,423
Dartmouth professor of biology talks about different infection scenarios, specifically exposure quantity (viral load) and time. She assumes 1000 viral particles as being sufficient dose for infection and talks about how different types of scenarios produce different levels of exposure.
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the...hem-avoid-them
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the...hem-avoid-them
"I am a Comparative Immunologist and Professor of Biology (specializing in Immunology) at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth."
In her blog, she describes herself in the following fashion...which I personally think is nice.
"The blog posts, while factual, discuss emerging science on COVID-19 in a colloquial way. They should not be interpreted in any other way. My goal is to make the science accessible to the general public."
However, what she says she is doing is exactly what we are doing here in this thread and note that she does not describe herself as an expert.
"I am not holding myself out as an expert on this virus or epidemiology and I rely on the amazing scientists publishing and discussing their work for the material and data content of my posts."
Finally, this blog post is dated 5/3 which in Covid-19 research world is obsolescent as far as data is concerned. She makes a point about surfaces and transmission that has not been supported by data. One can read the rest of the report using the above link.
#5325
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Well turns out it's a he.
But the comparisons of different kinds of breathing activities and implications for viral load are interesting.
Most of that post is about the loads in droplets, number of droplets, etc., not so much fomites from surfaces.
Most telling is the case of some indoor spread where people got infected from 50 feet away because internal air circulation systems spread the "cloud" all over even larger rooms.
But the comparisons of different kinds of breathing activities and implications for viral load are interesting.
Most of that post is about the loads in droplets, number of droplets, etc., not so much fomites from surfaces.
Most telling is the case of some indoor spread where people got infected from 50 feet away because internal air circulation systems spread the "cloud" all over even larger rooms.