47 CO Pax Imprisoned Overnight on Stinky E145 @ Rochester, MN
Aug 11, 2009, 9:29 pm
#331
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,034
It is my understanding that CO Mainline has triggers in place, that after a certain time period (not sure if it 3 or 4 hours), Senior Executives, up to and including the COO and CEO are to be notified. While it is easy for the "keyboard CEO's" to say how it SHOULD be run, there are some things that are unknown:
1) Does that trigger include all Express/Connection flights? Is the carrier that operates that flight for mainline presently under obligation to notify mainline at a certain time period? If not last week, I suspect it will be now.
2) If that WAS in place...did it occur? We will probably never know, who was notified, or not, but it is very unlikely that Senior Management at CO was aware of this situation, and said "yeah, it's XJT's problem. Let's just ride it out and hope the press doesn't find out". If this was in place and not followed, there will probably be repurcussion, but again, this forum will likely not ever know about it.
3) Compensation - CO Mainline will probably be the party to offer compensation. That compensation will likely not make thte news if it "fair", but will be all over the place if not considered adequate. Time will tell. There were some that wanted to sue US for landing in the Hudson from something completely out of their control, so that it is likely that, no matter what the compensation, someone will be unhappy with it. So.......all of you knowers of what is "fair" .... what would "fair" compensation be?
1) Does that trigger include all Express/Connection flights? Is the carrier that operates that flight for mainline presently under obligation to notify mainline at a certain time period? If not last week, I suspect it will be now.
2) If that WAS in place...did it occur? We will probably never know, who was notified, or not, but it is very unlikely that Senior Management at CO was aware of this situation, and said "yeah, it's XJT's problem. Let's just ride it out and hope the press doesn't find out". If this was in place and not followed, there will probably be repurcussion, but again, this forum will likely not ever know about it.
3) Compensation - CO Mainline will probably be the party to offer compensation. That compensation will likely not make thte news if it "fair", but will be all over the place if not considered adequate. Time will tell. There were some that wanted to sue US for landing in the Hudson from something completely out of their control, so that it is likely that, no matter what the compensation, someone will be unhappy with it. So.......all of you knowers of what is "fair" .... what would "fair" compensation be?
This is a textbook case of why punitive damages exist. Punitive damages can be far in excess of the compensatory damages. The idea being that purely compensatory damages are inadequate in getting some defendants to actually redress their behavior in the future. (IANAL!) [What does I anal mean???]
They should be falling all over themselves to *handsomely* compensate these passengers, promise/release a policy that ensures it will never happen again, and get this out of the news with CO having done the right thing.
They should be falling all over themselves to *handsomely* compensate these passengers, promise/release a policy that ensures it will never happen again, and get this out of the news with CO having done the right thing.
Well, then how do we explain these factoids:
1. The NWA/Delta flight taxied to the gate at 3am, after parking remotely at first
2. That both NWA/Delta and CO/XJ were in fact hoping to depart for MSP if the weather cleared, and that at 2am a weather window seemed to have opened, only to close quickly.
Both these factoids seem to suggest someone must have been at ATC at 2am and 3am?
1. The NWA/Delta flight taxied to the gate at 3am, after parking remotely at first
2. That both NWA/Delta and CO/XJ were in fact hoping to depart for MSP if the weather cleared, and that at 2am a weather window seemed to have opened, only to close quickly.
Both these factoids seem to suggest someone must have been at ATC at 2am and 3am?
Side question...
If the crew times out, are they no longer serving in their official position which must be obeyed?
As in, they're no longer fit to serve their job function after X-hours and X-hours have elapsed, so they officially have no power over me? And thus disobeying the orders when there is no authority to be giving such orders makes hopping out of the plane a non-event?
If the crew times out, are they no longer serving in their official position which must be obeyed?
As in, they're no longer fit to serve their job function after X-hours and X-hours have elapsed, so they officially have no power over me? And thus disobeying the orders when there is no authority to be giving such orders makes hopping out of the plane a non-event?
Continental certainly bears their fair share of responsibility here. The mayor's statement clearly says that it was under the control/direction of Continental dispatch NO, IT WAS XJ in MSP. These are Continental passengers YES, on Continental tickets YES, and under Continental operational control NO!!!!!. There is no seperate Continental ExpressJet ticketing, operational control YES THERE IS, or contract or carraige, if I'm not mistaken. To the extent that CO has a problem communicating with or directing their direct or subcontracted employees or equipment, that is their problem to resolve and the responsibility that they have YES BUT THAT'S HINDSIGHT AT THIS POINT. In short, maybe some of this was ExpressJet's fault, but that doesn't mean it isn't Continental's responsibility.AGREED
peace,
~Ben~
peace,
~Ben~
Last edited by pptp; Aug 11, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Aug 11, 2009, 9:34 pm
#332
Join Date: May 2004
Location: LAX
Programs: CO Platinum HHonors Diamond Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,312
"IANAL" = "I am not a lawyer..."
Would respond at length, but time to say goodnight to FT. Great thread! Hope we see more info/resolution/statement soon!
G'night!
peace,
~Ben~
Would respond at length, but time to say goodnight to FT. Great thread! Hope we see more info/resolution/statement soon!
G'night!
peace,
~Ben~
Aug 11, 2009, 9:42 pm
#334
Join Date: May 2004
Location: LAX
Programs: CO Platinum HHonors Diamond Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,312
If it meant "I anal" it should be a required signature line for all FTers... 
Aug 11, 2009, 10:15 pm
#335
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: BNA
Posts: 1,798
I agree with everything you said but I have to believe that Continental is taking this very seriously, hence the delay in speaking. I would think this is of great magnitude to the Continental team and speaking to soon could have greater consequences. Don't you think that at this point they have a team of attorney's racking their brains as to how to handle this? I would guess (at least think) they do.
This is serious enough that I think we should have heard from some upper level managers by now. I still recall an incident at WN where a girl was told to cover up. It made the news, WN was on it immediately. They managed it well, with humour and dignity. Wish we could see something like that here (no humour of course).
Aug 11, 2009, 10:58 pm
#336
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: On the Road
Programs: Air Canada Aeroplan, Delta SkyMiles, Southwest Rapid Rewards
Posts: 486
CorpComm
In addition to a complete revamping of how such incidents are handled in the future from an operational standpoint, and clearly enunciated commitments to build confidence in a commitment to customer service standards, I would also turf the corporate communications personnel at both ExpressJet and Continental for achieving the worst handling of a PR incident in many years. When coupled with how CO CorpComm shrugged its shoulders and passed the buck on BUF, it is clear that this department is running around like a chicken with its head cut off ever since Ned Walker departed. Bring back Bruce Hicks, call in some of the departed greats from the airline PR scene who are in semi-retirement -- Nancy Vaughan (US), Nicole Couture-Simard (AC), Honor Verrier (BA) -- and let the Houston debutantes go back to writing their thank you notes and planning their cotillions. The once-proud Bird with the Golden Tail is today's Molten Tail Express.
Aug 11, 2009, 11:04 pm
#337
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,275
What would happen if Abu Nidal terrorist had control of the plane and said they wanted to release 30 passengers? No stairs? Wait on the plane for 9 hours? No!
Releasing the passengers and letting them find a hotel themselves and asking them either to call Continental reservations at 8 am the next morning or showing up at the airport at 8 am in front of the Delta counter is not difficult. It is even easier if the pilots tell the passengers that there is nobody to handle their baggage so they can deplane without their baggage.
They could call the sheriff if they needed assistance to slam the airport door behind them.
Releasing the passengers and letting them find a hotel themselves and asking them either to call Continental reservations at 8 am the next morning or showing up at the airport at 8 am in front of the Delta counter is not difficult. It is even easier if the pilots tell the passengers that there is nobody to handle their baggage so they can deplane without their baggage.
They could call the sheriff if they needed assistance to slam the airport door behind them.
Aug 11, 2009, 11:36 pm
#338
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tampa, FL
Programs: Nothing - I'm useless!
Posts: 2,441
It's been mentioned a few times about the airport not being open - but the statements from the airports/etc make it quite clear that the airport had no qualms about the passengers remaining in the sterile area.
Aug 12, 2009, 12:28 am
#339
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: check swarm
Programs: DL DM & 2MM, SPG/Bonvoid LT Titanium, Hyatt Globalist, $tarbucks Titanium
Posts: 14,404
In addition to a complete revamping of how such incidents are handled in the future from an operational standpoint, and clearly enunciated commitments to build confidence in a commitment to customer service standards, I would also turf the corporate communications personnel at both ExpressJet and Continental for achieving the worst handling of a PR incident in many years. When coupled with how CO CorpComm shrugged its shoulders and passed the buck on BUF, it is clear that this department is running around like a chicken with its head cut off ever since Ned Walker departed.
Then, the PR group needs to do some on-going work to buff CO's reputation to "Fly Right". They have had too many incidents this year.
This is one instance where the PR group can force operations or the company as a whole to fix it's relationship with XJT.
Aug 12, 2009, 5:53 am
#340
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Washington, DC, USA
Posts: 1,884
My betting is this is how it will play out.
Continental will announce (probably some time today) that it had procedures in place for dealing with this.
Continental or more likely ExpressJet will announce that those procedures weren't followed, that Continental was never told about the delay and then express "deep regret."
Continental will announce it has put procedures in place to require its related carriers to notify Continental whenever a flight is more than 3 hours delayed.
ExpressJet may also announce that certain people who were working for the airline last weekend are no longer employed.
That would be my guess.
Oh and eventually Continental will be fined
Continental will announce (probably some time today) that it had procedures in place for dealing with this.
Continental or more likely ExpressJet will announce that those procedures weren't followed, that Continental was never told about the delay and then express "deep regret."
Continental will announce it has put procedures in place to require its related carriers to notify Continental whenever a flight is more than 3 hours delayed.
ExpressJet may also announce that certain people who were working for the airline last weekend are no longer employed.
That would be my guess.
Oh and eventually Continental will be fined
Aug 12, 2009, 7:20 am
#341
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ATL, BHM, DUB, County Wexford
Programs: DL DM, AA ExPlt, Diamond HH, HY, BW, & Titanium Elite Marriott
Posts: 4,863
Because I'm not a familiar face on CO's forum, I want to start my reply to you by saying that I'm a dude and Emma is truly my Dog. When I chose handles, my preferred few were taken and my dog was looking up at me so I just said f-it, I'll try that one.
With that said, your thought process is severely flawed. If you read my reply earlier, the issue that I (and others) take is the inflammatory use of someone's gender. That information was irrelevant to the post and the unspoken message is that this happened because a woman couldn't make a decision but a man could. And your reply above also implies that a female captain made it there by means other than through the regular seniority channels. What do we know about this captain? How many hours does she have in type? How long has she been a pilot? I doubt you know and I also doubt you have any idea of how this compares to any other RJ captains for ExpressJet. ....
With that said, your thought process is severely flawed. If you read my reply earlier, the issue that I (and others) take is the inflammatory use of someone's gender. That information was irrelevant to the post and the unspoken message is that this happened because a woman couldn't make a decision but a man could. And your reply above also implies that a female captain made it there by means other than through the regular seniority channels. What do we know about this captain? How many hours does she have in type? How long has she been a pilot? I doubt you know and I also doubt you have any idea of how this compares to any other RJ captains for ExpressJet. ....
#2 My post makes absolutely no implication. It is what it is. I know for a fact that ExpressJet hires pilots with very little hours. They also promote to captain pilots that still do not have a lot of hours. This may be because after they get 1500 plus hours they are gone to the majors where they can make more than 12 dollars an hour. Whether a captain is male or female has nothing to do with it. If you read something that is not there, I suggest self examination.
#3 Au contrare, there you go stating facts not in evidence. You don't know what information I am priviledged to.
Last edited by EasternTraveler; Aug 12, 2009 at 7:57 am Reason: Was pointed to another post by the op that changed my thoughts.
Aug 12, 2009, 7:31 am
#342
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: BNA
Posts: 1,798
My betting is this is how it will play out.
Continental will announce (probably some time today) that it had procedures in place for dealing with this.
Continental or more likely ExpressJet will announce that those procedures weren't followed, that Continental was never told about the delay and then express "deep regret."
Continental will announce it has put procedures in place to require its related carriers to notify Continental whenever a flight is more than 3 hours delayed.
ExpressJet may also announce that certain people who were working for the airline last weekend are no longer employed.
That would be my guess.
Oh and eventually Continental will be fined
Continental will announce (probably some time today) that it had procedures in place for dealing with this.
Continental or more likely ExpressJet will announce that those procedures weren't followed, that Continental was never told about the delay and then express "deep regret."
Continental will announce it has put procedures in place to require its related carriers to notify Continental whenever a flight is more than 3 hours delayed.
ExpressJet may also announce that certain people who were working for the airline last weekend are no longer employed.
That would be my guess.
Oh and eventually Continental will be fined
Aug 12, 2009, 7:38 am
#343
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ATL, BHM, DUB, County Wexford
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Posts: 4,863
I disagree. Both should be fined and here is why:
1. Continental hired the contractor and determines the contract.
2. It is CO contract of carriage.
3. By fining CO they will put in place measures that will prevent this from happening again in the future, by mainline or regional.
4. It might make CO think before expanding their use of regionals.
5. CO can override what is going on at any time it chooses if it is their contract. If not, then they will change that contract.
1. Continental hired the contractor and determines the contract.
2. It is CO contract of carriage.
3. By fining CO they will put in place measures that will prevent this from happening again in the future, by mainline or regional.
4. It might make CO think before expanding their use of regionals.
5. CO can override what is going on at any time it chooses if it is their contract. If not, then they will change that contract.
Aug 12, 2009, 7:52 am
#344
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ATL, BHM, DUB, County Wexford
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Posts: 4,863
You're right, because there's no pattern from posts like this one. Clearly, he's just pointing out that she's a woman for the fun of it:
or this one:
It must just be that I'm one of those oversensitive people that sees sexism (not to mention lousy spelling and grammar) in everything.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
Mike
or this one:
It must just be that I'm one of those oversensitive people that sees sexism (not to mention lousy spelling and grammar) in everything.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
Mike
I defended someone thinking they were just stating innocent facts. Now I find out that they did have a prejudicial bias. I am sorry for defending them.
Aug 12, 2009, 8:02 am
#345
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Finally back in Boston after escaping from New York
Posts: 13,644
Oh my! That second one is defintely sexist. I don't blame you for the report. I did not see the other post in the thread. But it is clear whatagoodboy is making purely sexist and inflammatory comments. I will second your RBP.
I defended someone thinking they were just stating innocent facts. Now I find out that they did have a prejudicial bias. I am sorry for defending them.
I defended someone thinking they were just stating innocent facts. Now I find out that they did have a prejudicial bias. I am sorry for defending them.
Mike