Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Discontinued Programs/Partners > Continental OnePass (Pre-Merger)
Reload this Page >

DL/AF/KL/NW four-way Atlantic venture - where does this leave CO?

DL/AF/KL/NW four-way Atlantic venture - where does this leave CO?

 
Old Apr 1, 08, 6:55 am
  #1  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DCA
Programs: UA LT 1K, AA PPro- LT Gold, Bonvoy LT Titan, Avis PC, Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,115
DL/AF/KL/NW four-way Atlantic venture - where does this leave CO?

Financial Times is reporting that AF/KL and DL along with NW expect to receive antitrust immunity this month from US Gov't to form a four-way transatlantic joint venture. The joint venture would share profits, revenue, joint sales plans, networks, capacity, etc.

This is a "light" version of a merger - with merger of the equity ownership of the four airlines with a unified product, but separate flying operations.

The competition to this four-way venture is BA, AA, LH, UA, and CO. With the four all part of SkyTeam where does this leave CO - also part of SkyTeam - if this group views CO as competition?

Maybe CO should be seeking out a new alliance? *A?
cova is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 7:28 am
  #2  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DCA
Programs: UA LT 1K, AA PPro- LT Gold, Bonvoy LT Titan, Avis PC, Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,115
There is a discussion on this topic over in the DL forum. This is a different topic than the merger topics - since the DL/NW full merger has failed but a light merger (a la AF/KL) is going to take place.

As discussed before - CO is really the odd one in SkyTeam. With this new competitive force - SkyTeam offers nothing to CO other than FF plan benefits. CO is in SkyTeam because Wings Alliance failed and really no place else to go.
cova is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 9:17 am
  #3  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,204
They applied for this a long time ago. The competitive advantage will be in the expanded code sharing, I think. If CO would sell more flights with their partner codes they'd probably not have too many issues with this. But the insistence on not showing onward flights from partner hubs makes CO seem less able to provide coverage than they really are.

Or CO will go out of business because everyone else has a better alliance. But I don't think that will happen.
sbm12 is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 9:36 am
  #4  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SEA
Programs: UA Silver, BA Gold, DL Gold
Posts: 9,779
Originally Posted by cova View Post
This is a "light" version of a merger - with merger of the equity ownership of the four airlines with a unified product, but separate flying operations.
Maybe it is me, but are you confusing the discussion at the end of the FT article (link) with the TATL JV that is going into effect? The last few paragraphs are a tack-on, discussing going with an AF/KL-type option in the NW-DL merger, but this doesn't seem to impact the JV, which will happen regardless of whether NW and DL undertake any sort of merger.

Like others, I think it sort of leaves CO as the 5th wheel in ST, but this isn't anything new. Whether CO leaves ST or not will likely be up to CO, as I don't really see any more incentive for ST to push them out tomorrow than they had yesterday. And, if one thinks that the other ST airlines want to push CO out because of competition fears, I'm not sure it follows that the *A or OW carriers would roll out the welcome mat, for the same reason.
pbarnette is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 9:47 am
  #5  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DCA
Programs: UA LT 1K, AA PPro- LT Gold, Bonvoy LT Titan, Avis PC, Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,115
With this new venture, I just do not see AF and KL wanting to sell tickets on connecting CO flights. Their website and systems will push connections at DL and NW hubs. They will only want to market their flights out of EWR and IAH as orginating flights for connections at AF/KL hubs.

The purpose of an alliance is that alliance partners sell tickets on the other partner's flights. The venture is significant in that a complete DL/NW merger has now been officially ruled out. But I could see DL and NW merge their FF programs and even their websites, sometime in the future. Yes, the venture is for Atlantic flights at this time, but it could expand.

CO OnePass was the combining of Eastern's and CO's FF programs - but there was no merger.
cova is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 9:49 am
  #6  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,204
Originally Posted by cova View Post
The purpose of an alliance is that alliance partners sell tickets on the other partner's flights.
I thought an alliance was just a marketing gimmick? I think it still is.
sbm12 is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 9:51 am
  #7  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DCA
Programs: UA LT 1K, AA PPro- LT Gold, Bonvoy LT Titan, Avis PC, Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,115
Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post
I thought an alliance was just a marketing gimmick? I think it still is.
An Alliance usually implies Code Shares - but CO does not code share with many people - just barely with DL and NW domestically, and Virgin internationally. What else?

DL for example codes shares with KE, AF etc on major international routes and of course NW and KL do - they provide website booking for each other.
cova is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 10:32 am
  #8  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: IAH
Programs: La Ministreuse de Surréalisme, CO Plat, MR Plat, SPG Plat
Posts: 11,358
Originally Posted by cova View Post
An Alliance usually implies Code Shares - but CO does not code share with many people - just barely with DL and NW domestically, and Virgin internationally. What else?

DL for example codes shares with KE, AF etc on major international routes and of course NW and KL do - they provide website booking for each other.

EVA (BR) operates some of their flights to/from TPE (LAX, SFO, SEA) as a CO codeshare.
baglady is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 12:07 pm
  #9  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,204
Originally Posted by cova View Post
An Alliance usually implies Code Shares
I disagree. An alliance is a marketing gimmick, with the main benefit for the traveller being seamless check-in across partner flights. Most codeshare agreements are built bilaterally outside of alliances, though most carriers have a preference for code shares within their alliance.
sbm12 is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 1:06 pm
  #10  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,016
Originally Posted by cova View Post
The competition to this four-way venture is BA, AA, LH, UA, and CO. With the four all part of SkyTeam where does this leave CO - also part of SkyTeam - if this group views CO as competition?
UA and LH already have such a revenue sharing venture in place.
channa is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 2:14 pm
  #11  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DCA
Programs: UA LT 1K, AA PPro- LT Gold, Bonvoy LT Titan, Avis PC, Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,115
Originally Posted by channa View Post
UA and LH already have such a revenue sharing venture in place.
I guess that puts CO in the same category as US is in the *A.
cova is offline  
Old Apr 1, 08, 11:33 pm
  #12  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: KAUS
Programs: UA MM
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by cova View Post
I guess that puts CO in the same category as US is in the *A.
I hope you're not suggesting anything there... (US - blech!)
perezoso is offline  
Old Apr 2, 08, 1:32 am
  #13  
R&R
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SAN
Programs: 1K-UA/AA, LT PLAT-MARRIOTT(1984), HILTON-GOLD, HYATT-GOLD
Posts: 951
Cool CO will continue to be my preferred airline from SAN!

Except when i have to take USAirways to the Freddies in Phoenix, and to Las Vegas for a meeting followed by Alaska Air to Vancourer and United San Francisco for other meetings.
That will help to top off my United miles account, but I would rather fly CO, anytime, which I am able to do for my South American adventures several times a year, and NY and Yul for more recreation.
I don't understand why United is so inept on recording the miles from United and USAir, so they always want the bording passes. This January I flew TAM within Brazil and only the Departure flight was recorded, then I found I didn't get United miles for the United flights to SFO, last Fall. This gets to be a real pain in the butt.
CO is spot on with the miles being recorded for some time.


Last edited by R&R; Apr 2, 08 at 3:34 pm
R&R is offline  
Old Apr 2, 08, 6:37 am
  #14  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DCA
Programs: UA LT 1K, AA PPro- LT Gold, Bonvoy LT Titan, Avis PC, Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,115
Originally Posted by perezoso View Post
I hope you're not suggesting anything there... (US - blech!)
I meant that CO is the odd man out in SkyTeam like US is the odd man out in *A. But the CO and US products are different.

In the CO/SkyTeam case - CO is the better product than the other SkyTeam airlines, where as in the US/*A - US is the worst of the product in *A.

Just that both CO and US are not in the select group for that teaming arrangement.
cova is offline  
Old Apr 2, 08, 7:34 am
  #15  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SEA
Programs: UA Silver, BA Gold, DL Gold
Posts: 9,779
Originally Posted by cova View Post
In the CO/SkyTeam case - CO is the better product than the other SkyTeam airlines, where as in the US/*A - US is the worst of the product in *A.
Having had the misfortune of flying on Spanair, I am not certain that US is the worst product in *A.
pbarnette is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: