TWA Fan 1

Sure, the P7230. Very light but very small. Small keyboard for my Russian peasant fingers, small screen for my feeble, middle-aged eyes. Expensive, too.

After all, I use my laptop in circumstances other than 31" seat pitch.

I'd rather ride on jetBlue, keep my standard size el cheapo Dell, and save money, to boot.

CLEHillbilly

Do you have a Jet Blue tattoo across your ...?

Its one thing to say I like this and that about such and such an airline or product...but personally I am getting tired of every day reading each of your posts and they all say the same thing. Ok CO has 31" of pitch, post it, say your peace ONCE and move on...do all of us here have to hear it day after day and post after post....its really getting old at this point. Post it once, its your right, and your opinion, then move on. I totally respect that.

Say it once and give it a break dude, or move it over to the B6 thread. We heard you the first, second, third, fourth and fifth times....Personally I do not need to hear it a sixth or seventh time in the same day.

I respect your opinion and the facts are CO has less seat pitch, but the facts are CO is making money, paying their pensions, and is the 4th largest airline in the USA. If you like JetBlue and its amenities, fine, say it once and we respect it, then move on and post something different. I do not go over to the B6 forum daily to post that they do not offer meals at mealtime or offer FC.

Sheesh....sorry but your hourly posts about seat pitch are getting old. Post it once and move on!

TWA Fan 1

31" seat pitch is a huge issue with what is an otherwise world-class airline. It's like a garbage dump in the middle of a beautiful park.

I have been bringing it up in connection with the threads concerning the DO because the purpose of that event was supposed to be addressing customers' concerns about their concerns. Yes, this thread is not related to the DO, but the seat recline issue would not be a problem if CO had a little more room in Y.

What could be more important than having adequate space? Especially in medium- and long-haul flights? No major airline in the world provides less space for medium- or long-haul flights in Y than Continental.

While I was not able to attend the DO my impression is that LK and the gang summarily glossed over this issue; of course, I am disappointed by this.

After all, 90% of the airline's customers sit in the Y section and deserve better.

CO works so hard to provide its customers with an outstanding service. It has meals in Y, pillows, blankets, it has a responsive customer service team led by COInsider here on FT. Its CEO attends an event like a DO. All of that is fabulous.

But what good is all of that when the space provided in coach is not adequate for a sizable portion of its clientele (I'm 6'0" and I can't stand it)? Certainly adequate space is a more important issue than pillows or arcane OnePass minutiae. Yet, LK and the gang continue to stonewall the issue.

Finally, on a side note: When I read that the solution to this inadequate space is to go out and buy a $1,600 - $2,000 teensy laptop with a 10.6" screen, I have to wonder: "Why wouldn't someone just fly an airline that provides adequate space? Are people really going out to buy a minuscule laptop just so they can use it in this inadequate space provided?"

The 31" seat pitch issue makes all of CO's otherwise outstanding service record irrelevant for many potential customers. It is an issue that deserves to be fixed.

LAXFlyer00

No, it doesn't. In most cases, one's weight is something is something they have the ability to control. Height is an attribute you have no ability to control. I think there's a big difference between something you have the ability to change, as difficult as it may be, and something you have absolutely no control over whatsoever.

Lurker1999

No they buy them because they carry a laptop around on a regular basis and got annoyed at having to haul around 7 pounds of gear and still only getting 2 and some hours of battery life. Being able to open it up on a plane is a side benefit. Don't put words in people's mouths.

TWA Fan 1

I didn't put words in people's mouth I simply posed a question. Your answer makes a lot of sense.

BTW, my Dell has a 17" screen, weighs a little more than 4 lbs and has an 8 hr battery life. My side benefit is that it's big enough that I can actually type on it and read the screen.

CO 1E

I disagree that CO executives have completely glossed over the lack of comfort in coach issue. As explained before in response to one of your comments, LK and the gang addressed topics such as Y+ and regular coach seating. While they dismissed major changes as economically unfeasible given their current business model of simplicity, they certainly continue to consider all options and listen to customer concerns. They also are in the process of replacing the seat padding on the ERJ's.

I agree that CO coach is uncomfortable, but to say that CO management is ignoring the issue of comfort is not accurate based on the information provided during various discussion at the do. They have considered modifications and rejected them as economically unfeasible.

TWA Fan 1

That is really little more than your run-of-the-mill lip service for such a major issue, one that drags an otherwise brilliant product down so significantly.

The "consider all options" pose reminds me of cynicism adopted by the authorities in the famous short story "Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers" by Tom Wolfe.

CO 1E

I might be inclined to agree had I not participated in several discussions with CO people concerning this very issue. The CO executives were up front about the fact Y+ or added pitch simply will reduce profitability and that, therefore, they were not interested. They did not try to cloak their position with some sort of non-promise promise and were very clear that it was a matter of economics.

Syzygies

The quality of the cushions themselves came up in my (exit) row on Monday's flight. One should bear in mind the extremely high total cost of putting any seat into a plane, e.g. first class seats cost more than a car. Spending this much money, there's no excuse not to do things right. However,

1. Durability is an issue, replacing cushions involves downtime.

2. Weight is a huge issue. The most comfortable cushions I know are heavy, and that burns fuel.

Balancing this, I reject argument 1., one could quick-swap an entire plane's worth of cushions in a few hours, with the right design. At least the seat; many come off to use as floatation devices, no?

On the other hand, 2. is engineering. One can't simply use memory foam, and replace it every few months; the stuff weighs too much. But I can't believe that what's in use now is the best civilization can offer, even at a price. I'd say that CO management views regular swapping of more comfortable cushions as unrealistic.

...Leading to infrequent flyers coming from other airlines regularly commenting to me on CO flights, "You've got to be kidding about these seats!?

MilesDavis

Nevermind...

TWA Fan 1

That's good to hear. On the other hand I would like to ask them why it is every other major airline in the United States manages to be profitable while providing greater seat pitch Y.

TWA Fan 1

We can demonstrate that, in fact, the current seat used by CO is clearly not the best "civilization can offer" since virtually every other airline flying in the United States (including, by the way, ExpressJet, ironically enough) has a more comfortable seat, although, unlike seat pitch, I realize there is some degree of subjectivity to the comfort of the seat (I have read Ft'ers praise the CO seat for its "firm comfort").

Ultimately, though, as long as customers keep filling the planes regardless of the brutal lack of space and discomfort, CAL simply has no incentive to change anything.

That's really all this is about. And the group that needs to be more vocal and more assertive about it is the large corps of elite OnePassers who, despite their tremendous loyalty and the amount of business they provide CO, often (if not usually) get to sit in the least comfortable economy cabin in America today.

Babu

Is there any website that list what CO pitch is in the emergency exit rows on their various aircraft? Or does anyone know?

CO 1E

I do not recall that question being posed, but my (armchair airline executive/analyst) guess would be: (1) for "LCC's," lower labor costs and reduced collateral costs associated with single-cabin aircraft and single-aircraft fleets; and (2) the reduction in debt and costs associated with recent emergence from bankruptcy of many of the carriers. CO operates a new fleet, pays its employees well by airline standards, and funds a pension plan, all of which drastically increase its costs of operation.

One interesting thing that Jeff Smisek mentioned was the fact that one even moderately poor decision or risk that does not pay off can wipe out CO's profits for an entire year. CO made a profit of someting like $130 million last year. If CO decided, for example, to invest in the launch of a new longhaul route, it would require new, expensive, widebody aircraft and associated labor and fuels costs. If that route were not successful over the course of the year, CO easily could lose over $100 million during the year just as a result of that one route. In other words, even if every other aspect of CO were profitable during the year, one bad new route decision could wipe out CO's profits for that year. That would, of course, result in unhappy employees who would not get profit sharing checks, as well as unhappy shareholders.

That same principle applies to the decision to add seat pitch or a premium coach cabin.