Lemurs

I am curious about their Int'l Y upgrades. It will be interesting to see 1) what quality they are. 2) if they keep them long term. If they're just bringing the food up to par, no big deal. The ammenties kit is interesting, but it sounds basic...headphones with the addition of eye-covers. It's a good PR boost, but I want to see if it's noticably better than CO's Int'l Y experience once the rubber meets the road. The skeptical Y traveler in me expects not.

As for 787 Y, there's no way it would be the old seats, because it will be an AVOD seat, so it's not even in the ballpark. No reason to get yourself worked up with worst case scenarios ahead of time. It will be a totally new Y seat. The question really is: All new, but will it be more comfortable? One can only hope...

bocastephen

The 767 and 777 are AVOD seats are only fractionally wider than the 753 seats - and it wouldn't be a problem adding AVOD to the basic 17.5" wide 753 coach seat for installation on the 787. It may be the only way they can cram 9 seats across the 787 cabin. 18+" wide seats might be too wide to accomplish this.

I am truly hoping a revolutionary new seat is introduced that is at least 18.5" wide in a 8 across (2-4-2) configuration that will eventually find its way onto the 76x and 77x fleet.

Lemurs

For 9-abreast, I think they'd actually be forced down to 17.2" seats, which is the same as the 757/737 seats. I do not think AVOD can be retrofitted backwards into those seats, so it would require a new design seat, even at the same width. The other option, 8-abreast, would also require a new seat, since anything less than 18.5" would end up with huge aisles that serve no purpose really. Either way, CO is going to end up with 3 different seats. (Narrowbody, Int'l 767/777, Int'l 787)...so commonality isn't a big seller.

The other option is that they go for an all-new narrow 17.2" AVOD seat so they can retrofit it to the 737 fleet...that'd be interesting, at least...if slightly uncouth. Here's the question though: Would you rather have a 17.2" seat with 33-34" pitch, or an 18.5" seat at CO's standard 31-32"? It doesn't have to be either/or, but I suspect that is really where the equation is being decided inside the deep recesses of CO seating HQ.

cerealmarketer

Anyone see Cathay's upcoming seats across all three classes?

http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_...eweconomyclass

Don't know about the width here, but this is an AVOD seat with the innovation that your reclining doesn't intrude on the person behind you.

And that b-class seat could be the first lie-flat business class seat that doesn't look or feel like the operating table at St. Elsewhere. Frankly, I prefer the plusher CO seat to most of the current lie-flat options. This is a step in the right direction.

ijgordon

OK, I see what you're saying here, but remember DL currently only has the 763 in int'l config, while CO only has the 762 and 764, so it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison given that there is always leeway for a few extra/fewer inches of pitch given closet/lav/galley configurations.

[/quote]2. DL has 2-2-2 versus CO 2-1-2, hence DL provides one more seat per row.[/QUOTE]Yes, so all else equal, CO would hypothetically lose fewer seats in a move to lie-flat "suites", but we really have no idea how DL is going to refit their 767s with a "lie-flat option". Of course on the current product, CO seats are wider, but that's not really the point of the discussion.

Babu

A 767 is a 767, regardless of whether DL or CO flies it. So, there is no reason CO has to stick with the 2-1-2 if they opt for fully flat...they could do 2-2-2 and not lose as many seats as some have calculated. 2-2-2 totally flat is still better than the 2-1-2 they have now.

Also, can't they lose ZERO J seats, but only Y seats if the math proves it out?

ND Sol

Just because the bed is 6'3" doesn't mean the pitch has to be 75". I have seen a mock-up of a lie flat bed with less than 60" pitch.

entropy

I have little doubt that CO will upgrade the BF seats with the 787, which will be retrofitted to the 767 and 777 when its heavy check time.

Is CO's seat falling behind? yes. Is it a problem? not yet. CO's seat is still sufficient. But with the other aspects of the service lagging, the overall product is not as competitive.

Lemurs

What length does the bed go out to? Pitch is kind of redefined in these herring bone configurations. It still has the same meaning (distance measured between two identical spots on each seat) but how it's experienced can be quite different. Seat width in this kind of configuration can change the pitch, whereas in a typical straight-ahead configuration, width does not affect pitch at all. It does seem like the new standard is the herring bone layout for maximum space and ammenities. It's hard to imagine a straight-ahead configuration that can compete, but then I am sure there are people working on exactly that.

Anglo Large Clawed Otter

What makes anyone think CO would not go for 17.2" wide seats with 31" pitch in a 9-abreast? The sardine tin must be packed to the very rim for maximum efficiency. Slap some avod on there, one of the slidey seat-bottoms from the 753, and the majority of the lumpen proletariat trapped in cattle class won't notice the difference. No doubt FTers would scream bloody murder...but we are a vocal minority. Squeeze as many pax as you can into the back so you don't lose any Y capacity, then you free up some front cabin space for new and innovative lie-flat J seats. Extra space by squeezing in all the rabble you can in the back means no loss of seats up front, even with improved (i.e., larger & longer) J seats.

Xyzzy

From the DL pictures it certainly seems as if the seats are angled toward the aisle. That's also the only way they can advertise that everyone has immediate access to the aisle.

Regarding the 757 Y seats, the current 752 aircraft CO flies will be getting AVOD in Y starting next summer. it will be interesting to see what kind of seats will be chosen for that project. I can't imagine that they can use the existing ones.

Lemurs

It's not that I don't think it could happen, I just don't think it can happen on the current gen seats. They're not built for AVOD, and tearing them apart to install it would be just as (if not more) painful as getting new-build seats, I would think. Note that from what I can tell, the Cathay's new Y seat is no wider than the 17.9" that CO uses currently in the 767/777, and they have similar pitch. It is essentially the slide-bottom 757 seat with a hard shell and no intrusion space. I think I could deal with that, even at reduced width and CO's current pitch.

JetAway

For awhile I've sensed some complacency in CO's official responses to the "enhancements" various carriers are making to their international bz services. This may be a smokescreen while CO quietly prepares its own "enhancements." But it may also mean that CO has fallen back into some of its old habits, which would not be good news for the long term.

ND Sol

I am not sure exactly the length, but it appeared as long as others. It would seem illogical to have a bed too short to save the pitch.

What I saw was 2 side by side at a slight angle, so not truly straight ahead. I believe that the seats were not quite as wide as BF.

Will CO consider something like that? Who knows.

climmy

[QUOTE=Lemurs]Delta's press release has two pictures. It's essentially the Air Canada lie-flat seat in Delta colors. http://media.delta.com/article_displ...ticle_id=10405

After seeing the pictures, it's not essentially the AC seat, it IS the AC seat, identical in pretty much every detail, including color (save for the monogram).

See project XM (exteme makeover) in the Air Canada section of FT. Airliners.net also has a few pics of the seats in service.