International First Class?
 

As United has recently abandoned the NYC international market, I am a recent defector to Continental.

My question is esoteric. I am wondering if there is any chance in hell that Continental will ever implement an International First Class (ie, 3 classes of service) on select routes. Examples might be the high revenue routes such as EWR-LGW and EWR-NRT. I am sure there are a few others? Would it make business sense to offer First Class? I know AA abandoned First Class on most routes except those where the dollars/pounds/yen were there.

I really do not think you will see F on CO's widebodies as there is not enough demand. Nor do they want to create a subfleet with 3 class cabins.

Actually, they just abandoned it on one aircraft type (763). It's still available to all of Asia/India, UK, Germany, and much of South America.

I wouldn't hold my breath. The best one can hope for is that when the 787's are rolled out, CO rolls out a new horizontal-flat product (like BA's NCW or the Thompson Solutions biz seats). I think a lot of CO regulars will be disappointed if CO goes angled-flat, and downright seething if CO does nothing at all to improve BF on the 787's. I had a chance to try out AZ's new angled-flat seats on their 763, and was wholly unimpressed. Much preferred their older seats on the return MXP-YYZ (was actually able to sleep restfully...which I was not able to do on the YYZ-FCO flight that had angled seats). Anything less than horizontal flat for the next generation BizFirst will be a total disappointment IMHO.

Only on the DFW-FRA flight. The ORD-FRA flight is a two-class 763. Also only two three South American destinations: GRU, EZE and GIG (only on the JFK-GRU-GIG flight).

I seriously doubt that CO will ever create a F cabin for international flights. Its present model offering a two class cabin seems to be working pretty well. CO BusinessFirst is a very competitive product among its class that people are willing to pay (although updating the seats wouldn't hurt but catering is top notch). It is probably the best J cabin of any US carrier.

Compared to UA, CO is vastly superior in J. As far as F is concerned, UA wins comfortwise with the individual suites and consistent service, but I find that in terms of catering and entertainment they are about the same.

Long-Haul travel involves far more competition with international carriers, many of which have far superior J cabins than CO. VS and BA are such competitors, along with several asian airlines. Often times, a biz class flight can be had cheaper on BA for routes such as IAH-LGW than on CO itself. Other than alliance loyalty, I don't see why anyone (except for perhaps a few heavier flyers who need CO's few extra inches of seat width) would choose BF over a fully-flat product. From what I've heard, window-seat pax in BA's NCW do have to straddle their aisle seatmate to exit the seat when the aisle pax is in full-recline. Depending on who's doing the straddling, this could either be a ^ or a :td: .

I, for one, look forward to upgrading to NCW from WT+ later this year as I make my push for BAEC Silver. As I can't sleep restfully on anything other than a flat surface, I'm hoping it lives up to expectations.

Only two of the SkyTeam alliance members, Korean and Air France, offer a first class cabin on some of their planes from what I have seen. The rest offer two-class service.

Didn't CO pioneer the 2-class config, with a hybrid Business-First product? Hence they got dibs on that name while everyone else had to come up with something derivative (BusinessElite, Envoy, etc.)

Of course, I mean pioneer in the sense of after Business class was first invented -- what, in the early 80s? -- as a class in between coach and First.

I'd be shocked if CO reverted back to a 3-class carrier.

Right -- and by "some of their planes", you actually mean "some of their long-haul planes" -- at least for AF, which I think is removing F from some of their widebodies. Not sure about KE.

I just flew first class to the Bahamas. :D

Yep, the two cabin configuration was Continental's baby. Other airlines had something similar, but Continental decided to offer quasi-FC service and code it as a business fare. (Then slowly increasing the price so it's getting close to first! The rest, as they say, is history.

Continental launched BusinessFirst in late 1992. Actually, BF will be 15 years old next year, I wonder if CO will celebrate.

I don't see CO ever abandoning the two-cabin concept, but I think the carrier is going to have to invest to upgrade its offering. BF is tired and other US carriers are coming up with better products. AA is reconfiguring the business cabin in its fleet of B763 to give lie-flat seats. CO is going to have to go down this route too. I don't see the airline has having a choice--particularly if it wants to gain entry into LHR.

AA's new lie flat seats are angled-flat, and have been the subject of some scathing criticism over on the AA board. Sure, many AA flyers are excited at the prospect of a new J product over there, because just about anything would be an improvement over their present J offering. Granted, some have written positive reviews of the seat. However, the prevailing sentiment seems to be that AA could have been much more innovative in unveiling its next-gen biz product. Though there has always been much sniping between the AA and UA boards, many on the UA board have commented that they will be sorely disappointed if UA simply matches AA with its upcoming new biz product, instead of going a bit more upscale. Apparently extraction from a window seat on the AA 763 with the new J seat when the aisle pax is fully reclined resembles something along the lines of a circus act.

Whilst I do agree BF needs an overhaul, I don't think CO needs to be targetting AA. If anything, AA has renovated its biz offering to offer something more akin to CO's (or perhaps more aptly NW's) seat. A sub-par biz product on AA is in the process of being brought up to the present J standards which one might consider "Good, but not great." As CO is not a 3-Class carrier, it should be aiming for a truly stellar J product that sets it apart from the competition when it unveils BizSecond. CO needs to be thinking along the lines of competing with VS, BA, SQ (at least when it comes to the seats), Etihad, etc.

I think that it is virtually certain that CO will offer a lie-flat product when it rolls out the new BF. The only question, as you point out, is what type of innovative seat they will install. VS-type J seats (as well as air new zealand J seats) might be a bit too dramatic. I can see CO choose a BA-like seat or an SQ/QF type seat. A Thompson Solutions-type seat also might be realistic).

What I am looking forward to is how CO will address the vast difference in J seats that exists throughout the fleet once the 787s roll out. As it currently stands, there are three different J seats - the 752, 767, and 777 seats. If you include AVOD-equipped seats on select 752s, there are four different types. Once the 787s come online, there will be four different types of J seats, with the 787s being state-of-the-art and the 757s, 767s, and 777s being average or subpar, depending on what competitors are offering in 2009.

The advantage that AA has for me, on international flights, is that it's going to be easier to upgrade. I wasn't successful getting upgrades on international flights with CO--even with a Y fare, so I am giving up on the carrier. AA also has a direct flight from LAX to LHR, which is great for me. Next year, it looks like I will do all my non-reward international travel on AA and domestic travel on CO.

Will it seems clear that AA's new J is not a home run it certainly appears to be quite a bit ahead of CO's BF.

Yes, the seat doesn't lay flat (but there is more legroom than on CO). But look at the whole package, how many more amenities and services are offered than in BF.

Here's a link: http://www.howwillyourtimefly.com/

From my point of view, it doesn't bother me that AA's current business class isn't all that special. It's still infintely better than coach, and it's not all that hard to get up there, as opposed to many people's experiences with CO. Now, when I am flying for business, in paid J, well, then at least I have the opportunity to upgrade to real First Class -- with flat beds and lots of personal space. (Even AA's weaker "coffin" seat offering only has 18 pax in the front zone of the 777 vs. 30 on CO's BF.) And those J-to-F upgrades are very easy to come by. So net, even flying paid J is a better overall proposition for me on AA than CO, despite CO's mostly superior product. Except of course deciding whether to take CO's nonstop EWR-HKG or connect in NRT on AA, upgrading the JFK-NRT leg to F and slumming it in J on CX/JL for the final leg to HKG... Can't decide!

You share my sentiment exactly. I am angling for EXP this year, which I think is really what you need. At this level, I can pretty much fly business all the time, domestically; I can also upgrade to FC with a business fare!

Sorry, but I think you're really confused about the AA system. AA only has three routes domestically which are three class service. JFK-LAX, JFK-SFO (about 50% of the time three-class) and LAX-MIA (1 or 2 flights a day three-class). On these routes, ANYONE can upgrade from a Business fare to First, you don't need to be EXP. In fact, your EXP free upgrades will NOT work to upgade you from J->F on these routes, and 500-miler stickers won't do so either for Plats and Golds. You, or anyone else, needs to use miles. Other than these few routes and flights, there is no domestic Business Class on AA.

One correction: JFK-MIA is always two class, even when flown with a 3 class 762. Only 3 class domestics are JFK-LAX/SFO on 762s.

In a few weeks, AA begins a 3 class 777 LAX-MIA-LAX once daily. :)

AA gives EXP's some SWU's each year. These certificates are, IMO, more valuable on international flights, but they are system-wide. EXP's also get waitlist priority from business to first if the seat isn't available. There are definite advantages to being EXP when flying on a domestic, three-cabin aircraft.

I am looking forward to that MIA flight; I live in LA, so the three cabin service is of particular interest to me.

Sorry, what's the correction?

JFK-MIA, when offered, is NOT sold as 3 classes even though a 3 class airplane is used. Elites and full fares can pre book the "Business Class" section, but its only coach service. First Class is treated as any other domestic 2 class route as far as upgrades go.

Oh SHOOT!!! I meant, LAX-MIA, not JFK MIA. Thanks FWAAA and Babu for pointing out my unintended mistake. :td: to BJ.

I'd much rather they introduced a proper mid class like Virgins Premium Econ or BAs World Traveller Plus.

Much more comfortable and bigger seat with considerably more space than econ and slightly better service but still a damn site cheaper than business class.

Per square foot of the airplane Virgin and BA make more revenue from these sections than any other class.

I too would love to see that, especially if they can do it domestic as well. As is, I have moved all my transcon business to United and their E+ (where I can actually type on my laptop).