COInsider: the issue of a closed waitlist
 

I am trying to get my arms around the issue of a closed waitlist. There's quite a bit of information scattered around the Continental Forum; I think the most interesting thread is this one. My focus is specifically on using cash and/or miles to waitlist from coach to BusinessFirst on international travel.

I've run into a closed waitlist now and again--most recently in March. I am trying to get my arms around the issue.

In the thread cited above, you'll see speculation that the length of the waitlist is fixed; once the waitlist is full, no more people can be added. There are also comments that if someone with higher elite status or a higher fare tries to join a closed waitlist, they're out of luck.

Can some light be shed on the waitlist issue so that I will know what I have to do to get on the list? I think planning a trip well in advance is the key, but for those of us that don't have that luxury, are we at a disadvantage--even if it means we pay a higher fare?

I've had an assistant call to see if the waitlist is open. Does it make a difference if the person had my record locator, OP number, etc.? My thought is 'no': a waitlist is either open or closed.

Is a waitlist run under FIFO--first in, first out? Or, if someone with higher elite status and/or a higher fare joins the list, do they trump others with lower status/fare that are already on the list?

Curious minds want to know!

Methinks it's somehow systems-related.

Either there's a max of people their waitlists will allow in their system, or it's a legacy rule from before they factored so many factors into the waitlists, and it was FIFO, so once it hit a point, it didn't make sense to keep adding people.

I'm just speculating, I'm curious to hear the real answer.

I'm working on this...
 

Thanks ContinentalFan, for reviving this topic. For the past month, I've been getting to the bottom of why we do this. Stay tuned, as I should have an update any day now.

To answer your other question re: how the waitlist is ordered, it is indeed ordered by Elite priority.

Thanks for the insight Scott! ^

Can you clarify if it's 1) Elite status, 2) Time placed on the list

Thanks :)

Yes, this is correct.

Thanks for looking into this. The whole waitlist issue is a bit of a black box!

CO Insider, any news on this issue?
 

Just wondering if any progress has been made sorting out this issue?

Thanks ContinentalFan for reviving this thread.
It would be very nice if CO could offer some more transparency on this issue.

FWIW, the 3 or 4 times I've tried to waitlist on CO's 46/47 (IAH-AMS-IAH) I've been hit with the "waitlist is closed" on every occasion. And I've typically been requesting the upgrade 3-4 weeks out from the flight dates. I guess a combo of popular route/high loadfactor in FC yields this result... :confused:

COInsider,

Allow me to throw this thought into your work: If we believe the basic management concept of "You can't manage what you can't measure", it would seem to me that by "closing" a waitlist, CO sees a much smaller pool of people that actully existed who were wanting to wait for whatever is in short supply. By doing so, CO is unable to see the actual situation, either at the time or later when reviewing service levels. By tolerating employees "closing" a wait list, CO is losing the benefit of seeing how many actually wanted to wait for this. The time savings of not putting someone on a wait list is not nearly as avaluable as the information that CO might be gathering about supply and demand for this premium product.

Just my two cents' worth.

--PP

Biggest Beef
 

If CO were to ask me what my #1 complaint against the airline is, I'd say that the mysterious waitlist is.

The 1)elite status and 2)time placed on list priority is extremely misleading.

A person buying a cheap fare with low elite status can easily get ahead of a Platinum Elite flying a full Y fare for an upgrade. This happens 100% of the time when the waitlist is closed and this has happened to me on several occaisions on CO.

As an example, lets say I book a full Y to go EWR-NRT; I'm Platinum. I call to use the 15k miles to upgrade the flight only to find out no inventory is available. So I ask to be waitlisted. And am told no. Why? Because a few weeks and/or months before I made my extremely expensive Y purchase, some non-Platinums clogged up the waitlist list with upgrade requests on lower fare purchases. As such, they will have a shot at an upgrade before I'm even able to get on the list.

Therefore, time to book and time to get on the waitlist superceeds Elite level and paid fare class. And this is something I have a big problem with. If there is truly a software problem at the root of this, then they need to not allow any non-Platinum from waitlisting. And/or not allow anyPlatinum flying on a non-Y/H/K fare from waitlisting. Or easiest yet, open up the waitlist to an infinite number of passengers ...and then sort out who will clear the waitlist by elite status, fare paid, and date/time booked.

That's my issue in a nutshell. I increasingly find that I have to buy tickets at the last minute--when only H and Y fares are available. I have this issue on transcontinental flights as well as transatlantic. I don't think anything can be done on domestic flight without a major overhaul of the entire process--I think changing what exists now would be a mistake as, for the most part, the wait list mechanism works well. Rather than buy a Y fare and sit in coach (usually only middle seats are available), I fly JetBlue.

International is a different issue. Increasingly, I am in position of having to buy a full coach fare. Since I know there's no chance of an upgrade on CO--and saw clearly that employees get preference over customers--I've switched to AA. AA has a much better way of treating passengers with last minute ticket purchases--it's easier to get into the business cabin.

All right. I've got some good news. Effective later this week (11-Aug), Continental will no longer be closing any of its First/BusinessFirst class waitlists. Starting then, if you're eligible to waitlist, you may do so. It'll be that simple.

This change is the direct result of comments made in this forum. Thanks as always for your feedback.

Great news Scott! This is great progress and I would like to thank you for listening to our constructive feedback.

WOW!! Show me another cpompany of any size out there that would change company policy as a result of internet feedback. Policy changes as a result of listening to customers. A CEO that returns E-mails and phone calls to customers. FAs that don't gripe in earshot of the pax. THIS is why I fly CO out of a non-hub city even though it guarantees me a double-hop wherever I go. BRAVO, SIR!!

--PP

Thanks for the update Scott; that's great news!

So, what you are saying CO Insider, is that there really was never a valid reason for this closed waitlist business? You're just going to change the policy, like that? While I truly think that's great, how many other CO policies are in place that make no sense?? What about the 72-cum-24 hour rule for BF upgrades? I realize it's been discussed ad nauseum over the years, and some progress was made with the change to 24 hours, but it's still an uncompetitive and customer-unfriendly policy.

Just trying to keep you guys honest... ;)

Awesome, this is a very welcomed change. Thanks Scott!

I wish it were that easy, ijgordon. But after 11 years with Continental, I've found that just about everything we do has a pretty good reason behind it. When it came to reconsidering our closed waitlist policy, we had people from at least 6 different departments working together behind the scenes to make it work.

There were two key reasons why we ever had a closed upgrade waitlist policy in the first place.
For us to be able to lift waitlist thresholds, we needed some foundational solutions in place. First, we needed to remove the element of surprise for those customers whose waitlists don't clear. Starting this month, we're going to be proactively contacting customers as soon as their their waitlist expires to make sure they know in advance that their upgrade did not and will not clear. Our belief is that our customers at minimum appreciate some advance notice when the news is bad. It seems to be 10x worse when customer hears about it for the first time 1-2 hours before departure. Second, we needed to clean the waitlists out of the reservation so that the customer could at least use online or kiosk check-in. It's a minor point, but it's one of those that compounds an already tough situation. Third, we needed to ensure that we re-deposited any unused upgrade awards at the time of waitlist expiration.

So, in the end, we made all the needed changes, and our upgrade waitlist threshold policy is no more. But it was hardly just like that!

We actually do have reasons for our 24-hour waitlist expiration, and I don't see this changing anytime soon. First, we have the challenges outlined above about managing customer expectations too close to departure. Second, and most importantly, we're not willing to do anything that could jeopardize our demand for premium cabin fares. Making it easy to stand by for upgrade awards at the airport would potentially risk our ability to sell these seats at their intended retail value. And that's not a risk we can afford to take.

Bravo, the eloquence and absolute correctness of the statement by COInsider is unprecedented on this 24 hr BF upgrade subject. I would rather see CO sell these seats for the price that the market demands, rather than turning the whole process of BF upgrades into a carnival which could adversely affect revenue maximization. I'm perfectly content with the policy and glad that CO is holding the line on this.

Agreed - but I would suggest there's a finer line which could be walked. Bear in mind that CO is so determined to keep phantoms out of BF (for good reason!) they were willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater in terms of a solution. While I too applaud the 72 to 24 hour rule change I can say few things are more frustrating than having to watch a BF seat fly empty when I and others were willing to pay miles plus cash to sit there.

In turn, such policies, among other things, drives my international business to others and I'll even go out on a limb and say I'm not the only one who's been frustrated by this.

I still do firmly believe there's a middle ground that can be reached but until such a compromise is found I refuse to tolerate the rules that CO has in place over this area. However, while I may not personally care for the rules, I do respect CO's position regarding them. If they feel that such policies are required to keep phantoms out of the cabin than so be it. J fares are CO's bread and butter, and it seems smart to protect them.

As always, thank you CO Insider for sharing CO’s perspective on things. ^

Bad Change
 

The only thing bad about this change is now I don't have much to talk to Scott about tomorrow when I see him in DFW. :p

But I'm sure I'll think about something. :cool:

Ask him to prioritize the standby list by Elite status, as AA does!

He's a step ahead of you, bonehead :)

Indeed! Let's not all of us forget that while we love the front of the plane, there's a reason we love it, it has a cash value and the company really must be allowed to try to GET that price for it. I myself and shocked at hte amount of upgrades I get domestically (I realize we're talking BF here but the same argument still applies) and it is clearly a SPACE AVAILABLE product. I have gotten upgrades on $250 transcons and I am hugely grateful for each and every one of them but I know it would be far better for the airline that treats you like they actually want your business to be SELLING that product. The upgrade is a way of taking what on other airlines would be an empty first class seat (used to see it all the time on AA) and letting a frequent flyer have it instead of it going empty, which is great business accumen. But all that would be wiped away and made useless if they didn't give themselves every opportunity to sell it away first.

I think CO might actually see more purchased upgrades as a result of letting people know that they aren't going to get upgraded 24 hours out. Keeping the company with good revenue is he only way we're not all going to be flying on one of the airborne cattle cars.

--PP

--PP

Alright - I concede! :) Thanks for the in-depth explanation, makes things clearer now.