craz

CO just wouldnt beable to keep up with the likes of BA, AA or UA into LHR unless it redid its BF cabin, which isnt going to happen. Or they could leave it as is and way under-cut the others when it comes to what it will charge(not likely).

I like the way CO FAs treats you on board.And they do have a nice fleet of a/c. But their product just doesnt hold up against the competitions in most cases, at least on the Intl Routings.

As for the Stock price, well AMR is floating around its 52 week High. USAir is up there also. atbthis stage I wouldnt be buying any Carrier stock

CO 1E

BA, yes, but AA and UA's C is inferior to CO's J, IMO. CO has far nicer J seats, does not have middle seats, and has far better food. I also don't think that CO's lack of int'l F would be a huge disadvantage. AA and UA's strength vis-a-vis CO with regard to LHR would be frequency. CO definitely could hold its own into LHR, even with the current BF product.

CO 1E

I do this all the time; have no problem avoiding 752s if I so desire.

^ ^

TWA Fan 1

Agreed that CO's BusinessFirst is outstanding. Although not quite as lavish as the highest-end international F "suites" CO's BF absolutely ranks as one of the best values in airline travel in the premium cabin category, with roundtrip fares to various European destinations from EWR in the $2,500 range. Seats are excellent, the space is spectacular and the catering is among the best in the business.

With CO BF, you get about about 75% of the product you get with full international FC at about 25% of the price of full international FC.

CO 1E

One thing that is holding BF back is the lack of AVOD on all aircraft save a few 752s. I essentially agree with your value assessment, but if you put a premium on a flat bed, I think BF gives you about 50% of the product you'd get with international F. This will change when CO rolls out a lie-flat product in 2009 (as I think we're expecting).

I should note that if I were buying international F all the time, I wouldn't be flying on US carriers - BA, CX, SQ, EK, LH, VS (technically J but comparable to F, IMO), and QF all provide much more product for the money than AA or UA F.

TWA Fan 1

What's interesting is that, at least on the transatlantic market, only Virgin Atlantic & BA can truly claim to have a more comfortable, truly lie-flat seat in Biz Class (and more on Virgin, of course).

Otherwise, all of the other European biz classes are on angled lie-flat seats, and on some of these carriers, no significant discounts are commonly available.

CO 1E

Which is one of the main reasons BF has been a success, IMO.

777vacation

Say what you will about CO but they have some of the lowest fares out there most of the time. Cost is #1 when I travel. I hope they are able to stay alive

TWA Fan 1

I'll agree with you if you're discussing travel in the premium cabin, both domestically and internationally.

But as far as domestic coach travel goes, my recent experience has shown me that CO has almost always been the most expensive option (at least in the past 3 months).

I'm flying NYC-Houston on Wednesday. The best fare I could find on CO with a 2-week advance purchase was over $800 so I ended up buying a ticket on ATA for $376.

Many on this board have noted the steep increase in CO domestic discounted coach. In my experience, I have found CO to be astronomically more expensive (I'm flying NYC-DSM in July, the best I could find on CO was $1,707 while NW charged me $240).

There is, in fact, an odd situation where the discounted domestic FC fare is sometimes less than the full coach fare...

tuolumne

Yes, but American just launched a new Business cabin, and as pathetic looking as it looks, still beats out the BF Cabin.

United is going to unveil their new Business and First cabins very soon.

The Business First product is looking pretty ancient to me, AVOD or not. The seat is not lie flat, and the wine and food lack in my opinion. And yes, I have traveled in the cabin.

My main argument here is, Flying into heathrow with the Continental product will not be competitive. United, American, and BA all offer three cabin service with First Suites, and lie flat business will soon be a reality for AA/UA. How Continental thinks they can come in with a sub par premium product which is not even lie flat, and only one cabin, is a bit unrealistic. Even if Virgin only has one IPP cabin, they have Premium Economy as well as much superior Upper Class Suites to compare to the Business First seats. Even if American has no Premium Economy, they at least have lie flat business and First Suites. Continental has nothing to stand out, no E+, no lie flat business, and no First. Simply put, the standards at LHR are set to a level out of reach of the current Continental international product.

tuolumne

Well wouldn't that be nice

In reality, United's upgrade policy is very generous, another reason why Continental pains me, Domestic and International. Upgrades are a joke.

theblakefish

A few things that need to be cleared up here....

After reading your previous posts, I am completely confsed by your reasoning. Do you want widebodies or direct service?

Guess what...you cannot have both, at least not right now. Would you rather fly into LHR , FRA, WAW, etc and then make your connection? Or, would you rather fly direct from EWR? Once I arrive in the continent, I would much rather be at my destination from the get-go. ^

So, you enjoyed flying into HOU rather than IAH? Sometimes that is not an option, plus you were in a market served by WN. TWA Fan 1, by your numerous posts, we all can see that CO is not your favorite airline, but please bring a route that is serviced by CO next time. Is CO high-priced? Sometimes yes, but take a look at some of UA and AA's fares (not to mention DL -- what are they doing with their fares right now??!! ) and they are right up there -- especially this time of the year.

TWA Fan 1

On the contrary, I flew nothing but CO (with the exceptional NW) for nearly six years. Always loved it until the recent period when upgrades and reward seats vanished.

As far as bringing up a route that is serviced by CO, perhaps you misread, I am flying NYC-Houston. Is there any other route better served by CO, linking its two principal hubs?

My first inclination was, of course, to fly CO. The lowest fare I could find on CO was $818. So it was only reluctantly that I searched the web and found the ATA itinerary into HOU for $376. (btw, ATA is the operator of the WN codeshares LGA-HOU).

As it turns out, HOU will be much more convenient than flying into IAH, but that is simply a matter of coincidence.

Also, you mention UA. I'm sure fares are all over the map but I can only speak for myself. I flew NYC-DEN a couple of weeks ago and the cheapest I could find on CO was $840 while UA got me there for $469. Neither ticket was especially cheap, and I realize that DEN is a UA hub. But UA was a lot less expensive. And for an extra $49 I got a seat in E+, which was light years ahead of CO Y.

I am only one traveler but I do fly a lot. I have not been able to find a lower fare on CO on any itinerary since last fall. In the past, I would have gladly spent the extra dough for a reasonable chance at an upgrade, to maintain my elite status, and to accrue miles.

But with all those benefits no longer reasonably available because CO is instead selling seats and thus increasing LF's (which is completely fine and I applaud them for making money, btw) there is not enough seat inventory left to provide mid-level elites like me any tangible benefits.

So if that's the case, why would I spend hundreds (and in one case thousands) of dollars more to fly the least comfortable coach cabin in America?

theblakefish

You bring up an interesting point, is flying to IAH the same as flying into HOU? Depends on which part of town you are trying to get to. Both are a monster cab fare to anywhere out of a 5-mile radius, but it reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine about the DCA-BWI connection.

IAH to HOU is 30.4 miles, DCA to BWI is 34.9 miles. Do both pairs serve the same markets? Yes and No. Houston Metro is larger than the Washington/Baltimore metro area, but might be considered one market -- yet DCA-BWI are closer in distance but the seperation between the district and B'more makes them like 2 markets.

So, I really don't consider IAH and HOU the same market. It's kinda like the MIA vs. FLL argument...to a certain extent. But I'm sorry that I have taken this thread even further off topic than it already is, so I'm OUT!

TWA Fan 1

You're right Interesting that you should bring up MIA vs FLL as I am flying B6 tomorrow to FLL (they don't fly to MIA). While FLL is an extra 20 minutes to my hotel, I'm so happy to avoid the insanity of MIA that I'm ready to accept that extra drive.

One final point about IAH vs HOU: My first inclination was to fly into IAH, simply to be able to fly CO. I only selected HOU as a last resort when it turned out that flying CO was going to be exorbitantly expensive. The same, I suppose, as people will fly WN into BWI to avoid expensive fares on US into DCA.

In any case, to try to steer the thread back on course, while I don't agree with Mr. Cramer that there is any likelihood of CO being purchased by a foreign group, I think it's clear that they're doing very well. At least in the short term.

What remains to be seen is how well this strategy of high LF's will pay off to the extent that it is alienating the company's most loyal customers.