"I'm sorry, F is checked-in full" yet empty seats fly?!
Dec 2, 2003, 4:14 pm
#31
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 384
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dbaker:
I believe you are severely misled if you think a domestic pilot flies up, down, and across the US that much in a single day.
Additionally, EWR-CDG is one of the shortest transatlantic flights CO serves. Don't forget about IAH-FRA, for example.
For what it's worth, pilots only fly every other segment. Half the time the captain is the pilot flying and half (s)he is the pilot not flying while the first officer is the pilot flying.
Also, remember that FAR 121 part 503 limits pilots to 100 hours a month & 1000 a year. If domestic crews were flying as much as you describe (it includes taxi/hold times), they'd only work about 7 days a month and take november and december off.
</font>
I believe you are severely misled if you think a domestic pilot flies up, down, and across the US that much in a single day.
Additionally, EWR-CDG is one of the shortest transatlantic flights CO serves. Don't forget about IAH-FRA, for example.
For what it's worth, pilots only fly every other segment. Half the time the captain is the pilot flying and half (s)he is the pilot not flying while the first officer is the pilot flying.
Also, remember that FAR 121 part 503 limits pilots to 100 hours a month & 1000 a year. If domestic crews were flying as much as you describe (it includes taxi/hold times), they'd only work about 7 days a month and take november and december off.
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I'll leave it up to you as to whether you want to believe me or what my brother has told me.
That having been said, my brother generally tries to schedule as much flying time in as few days as possible. The example I used is similar to the types of schedules he tries to fly. That way, as you correctly point out, he only works 7-10 days a month (which is, I believe, what most pilots try to do). Both domestic and international flight crews alternate who does the actual flying (ie the captain or the first officer), so I'm not quite what your point was.[This message has been edited by brooklynflyer (edited Dec 02, 2003).]
Dec 3, 2003, 2:10 am
#32
Original Member
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There is NO CO IAH-FRA but a IAH-EWR-FRA where the 777 becomes a 767-400 between IAH and FRA
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Oliver
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Viele Grüße
Oliver
Dec 3, 2003, 5:29 am
#33
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 326
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dbaker:
or are drunk at the p club and forget about their flight</font>
or are drunk at the p club and forget about their flight</font>
Gives me an idea for a new thread!
Dec 3, 2003, 8:46 pm
#34
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by brooklynflyer:
You had quite a compliant gate agent. I can just as easily have seen the GA tell you, "Sir, I said that first class was checked in full which means that there will be no empty seats in first class and you will have to take a seat in coach."</font>
You had quite a compliant gate agent. I can just as easily have seen the GA tell you, "Sir, I said that first class was checked in full which means that there will be no empty seats in first class and you will have to take a seat in coach."</font>
Dec 3, 2003, 9:39 pm
#35
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MEM FA:
Often the break seats for FAs are contractual and if they are not provided the company has to pay the FAs additional money, so it would cost the airline to give those seats away. Also, when we work a 10-14 hr flight that operates over night we get sleepy,fatigued.. just plain tired and that 1-2hr break we get to take a quick nap really helps. I have been on serveral flights were the seats were taken we can't take a nap or have a real break without them (granted we may be sitting in the galley but we have to be available). This is not a complaint, I LOVE my job, but if you were at work 10-12 hours you'd get a break so it only makes sense we'd get one too.</font>
Often the break seats for FAs are contractual and if they are not provided the company has to pay the FAs additional money, so it would cost the airline to give those seats away. Also, when we work a 10-14 hr flight that operates over night we get sleepy,fatigued.. just plain tired and that 1-2hr break we get to take a quick nap really helps. I have been on serveral flights were the seats were taken we can't take a nap or have a real break without them (granted we may be sitting in the galley but we have to be available). This is not a complaint, I LOVE my job, but if you were at work 10-12 hours you'd get a break so it only makes sense we'd get one too.</font>
Dec 3, 2003, 11:03 pm
#36
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: fort worth, tx AA Gold,Best Western-Diamond, HH- Gold, Marriott-Silver
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Your flight patterns are your choice, just like the FA's job is her choice. She/he took the job based on a contract. That contract includes break seats.
You fly the airline and hope for "space available" upgrades do to your loyalty. If the only "empty" seats are the break seats then there are no "space available" seats. Therefore there is no upgrade. I don't know what you do, but I think the potential of a FA being rested if there is an emergency situation and there are hundreds of lives at risk outweighs your need for a BF upgrade based on your miles/loyalty or whatever. If rest is important for you to perform your job functions safely and other people have paid you to be responsible for their safety than you need to find a way to get the rest if a BF seat is not available.
You fly the airline and hope for "space available" upgrades do to your loyalty. If the only "empty" seats are the break seats then there are no "space available" seats. Therefore there is no upgrade. I don't know what you do, but I think the potential of a FA being rested if there is an emergency situation and there are hundreds of lives at risk outweighs your need for a BF upgrade based on your miles/loyalty or whatever. If rest is important for you to perform your job functions safely and other people have paid you to be responsible for their safety than you need to find a way to get the rest if a BF seat is not available.
Dec 3, 2003, 11:06 pm
#37
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,579
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ap2110:
Well cry me a river. So you work 10-12 hours and are tired. On many occasions I have woke up at Monday morning at 4:00 A.M. and traveled to the West Coast, engaged in meetings, dinner meetings, then took the red ey to the East Coast and worked all day only to get on another flight on tuesday evening. So don't talk about how tired you are. It is my reward for consistently flying the airline to be U/G. The FAs can stand in the galley. </font>
Well cry me a river. So you work 10-12 hours and are tired. On many occasions I have woke up at Monday morning at 4:00 A.M. and traveled to the West Coast, engaged in meetings, dinner meetings, then took the red ey to the East Coast and worked all day only to get on another flight on tuesday evening. So don't talk about how tired you are. It is my reward for consistently flying the airline to be U/G. The FAs can stand in the galley. </font>
FAs and pilots are often in the position of trading money for "non-money" things through collective bargaining (or vice versa) in order to cut costs for the airline. Asking them to voluntarily give up their breaks is not really different than one of your clients asking you to give up a vacation day for no compensation. Sometimes it has to be done, but, if done regularly, it contradicts the agreement with your employer, much to your own detriment.
Dec 4, 2003, 5:05 am
#38
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York City & Cleveland, CO Plat as primary
Posts: 155
When FC seats empty happened a second time to me, I made a formal complaint and was told that the RedCoats/Agents are under such pressure to get a flight out on time that they cannot always address specific passengers needs in order to hold up all passengers, a.k.a. an entire on-time-performance. Blah, Blah...this relates to laziness as the RedCoats are well aware at the end of boarding how many empty seats and how many elites are on flight. It would take them a whopping minute to satisfy our upgrades, but I've been told "I just don't understand what it is like to work for CO and the pressure to get wheels up..." FA's supposedly have no authority on upgrades and frankly they are very smart to play dumb or it could get ugly with passengers.
Dec 4, 2003, 7:20 pm
#39
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,746
I had a bizarre situation at EWR. I go to gate with boarding pass, and ask to make sure if I am on the waiting list for FC. The agent takes a breif break from her animated conversation with her co-worker, looks at my boarding pass which says Elite on it, and says "yes you are on the waitlist, but first has checked in full." I got to the PC to console myself, and ask the PC agent the same question. She takes my boarding pass, and, unlike the first agent, types something in her computer. She tells me that I have already been upgraded. This was less than 5 minutes form when I was at the gate, obvioulsly I had already been upgraded when I was at the gate, the agent was just too lazy to check and see if I had been upgraded.
Dec 4, 2003, 7:59 pm
#40
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Bizarre? Sounds like SOP to me.
Dec 5, 2003, 8:14 am
#41
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Never ask anyone engaged in an "animated conversation" anything.
MisterNice
MisterNice
Dec 5, 2003, 1:53 pm
#42
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Memphis, TN Hyatt Plat, NW Silver, SPG Gold, Hilton Gold, National Emeral Exec
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ap2110:
Well cry me a river. So you work 10-12 hours and are tired. On many occasions I have woke up at Monday morning at 4:00 A.M. and traveled to the West Coast, engaged in meetings, dinner meetings, then took the red ey to the East Coast and worked all day only to get on another flight on tuesday evening. So don't talk about how tired you are. It is my reward for consistently flying the airline to be U/G. The FAs can stand in the galley. </font>
Well cry me a river. So you work 10-12 hours and are tired. On many occasions I have woke up at Monday morning at 4:00 A.M. and traveled to the West Coast, engaged in meetings, dinner meetings, then took the red ey to the East Coast and worked all day only to get on another flight on tuesday evening. So don't talk about how tired you are. It is my reward for consistently flying the airline to be U/G. The FAs can stand in the galley. </font>
I think ff are entitled to the perks they get, and while I know unlimited domestic upgrades are a part of most programs, I didn’t think international upgrades (without using miles) were included. If there are empty seats in business and you are on a coach ticket I think it is rather presumptuous to assume you’d be sitting anywhere other than coach on an international flight.
I must say from the tone of your letter (“I’m owed an upgrade,” “FAs shouldn’t be able to use the seat I didn’t pay for because I want it - darn contract!!!”) you may be long over due for a break yourself.
[This message has been edited by MEM FA (edited Dec 05, 2003).]
Dec 6, 2003, 2:13 am
#43
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: mill valley, ca, usa
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Posts: 154
I have no quarrel with airlines using some first-class space for the comfort of crew members who need a break in long work schedules. However, I suspect that most of the time the empty seats are the result of nothing more than laziness or inattentiveness by gate agents.
This was my experience a few days ago on a routine 3-hr SFO-IAH flight:
The flight was already several minutes into the boarding process when I asked if the last-minute count showed availability of an elite upgrade. The agent just said "it's full" with body language that said "go away".
From my economy seat near the first class cabin I could see at least 3 empty seats that were not used by anyone during the flight. I asked an FA about it after the landing and she said the empties might have been caused by missed connections -- possibly true, but that only confirms my suspicion that the gate agent didn't care to be bothered at a time when the no-shows would have been counted.
At IAH I sought out a customer-care supervisor. I said politely and firmly that space-available upgrades are one of the main rewards for elite-level loyalty, and I had been denied this benefit improperly and I should receive compensation (even though my status was merely NWA Silver). The supe gave some more generalized blah-blah about missed connections etc., but I persisted with sticking to the known facts about this particular flight. After some more give-and-take she wrote out a space-positive upgrade form in my name, usable on any CO flight for the next year.
Is there a moral to the story? I think so:
1) Before leaving the plane, find out if the crew had extenuating circumstances to deliberately keep seats empty or "it just happened".
2) If no extenuating circumstances, find a CS agent immediately after deboarding and demand compensation for being denied a contractual benefit. If enough of us get compensatory vouchers at airline expense, the gate agents will be told to be more conscientious about their jobs and their seating charts.
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Wright Brothers Were Wrong
Dec 6, 2003, 7:49 am
#44
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 28
Question for the Pilots on FA's: I always assumed that the same crew ( both pilots and FA's) would work flights 1402 & 12 (EWR-LAX-EWR). Given the contract rules and FAA regulations, was I mistaken?
Dec 6, 2003, 9:56 pm
#45
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Memphis, TN Hyatt Plat, NW Silver, SPG Gold, Hilton Gold, National Emeral Exec
Posts: 135
manwillneverfly,
There are times when miss connects cause empty seats up front and things work out more smoothly when the gate agent (time permiting)puts people in those seats (we don't have to try to explain to all of the sliver, gold & platnium why we can't move them up even though there are empty seats. Really, we cannot move you and could get fired if we do it and we don't get the upgrade list so we don't know who was next anyway). Sorry they kind of blew you off, but since I don't know what all goes into ticketing, upgrades etc, I can't really say much more. An FYI, as far as I know, FAs only get official breaks on international flights over 8 hours, so you would not have to worry about that on most flights.
go_Gints,
Rules for flying differ for FAs and Pilots. For example, an FA can do MEM/LAX/MEM (in same day) but the pilots would change in LAX. Not sure what the exact rules are though.
There are times when miss connects cause empty seats up front and things work out more smoothly when the gate agent (time permiting)puts people in those seats (we don't have to try to explain to all of the sliver, gold & platnium why we can't move them up even though there are empty seats. Really, we cannot move you and could get fired if we do it and we don't get the upgrade list so we don't know who was next anyway). Sorry they kind of blew you off, but since I don't know what all goes into ticketing, upgrades etc, I can't really say much more. An FYI, as far as I know, FAs only get official breaks on international flights over 8 hours, so you would not have to worry about that on most flights.
go_Gints,
Rules for flying differ for FAs and Pilots. For example, an FA can do MEM/LAX/MEM (in same day) but the pilots would change in LAX. Not sure what the exact rules are though.