Beating HoKeY
 

I just got off the phone with CO and i'm pretty excited so i just HAD TO tell somebody! (no live beings near me at the moment so FT will have to do)

There was an earlier thread on a few people who had successfully beaten HoKeY in the first week following 10/1, but I had tried then with two other flights with no success.

Thinking that it never hurts to try, I called to inquire about available upgrades. Upon going through the entire mileage upgrade process without being stopped on my non-HoKeY fare, I felt like I had won the lottert when she said "you're all set." Now my 11 hour EWR-HNL flight that I bought on a amazing $379 B fare should be less torturous. On my first call no less!

Was I just lucky or is CO now quietly "de-enhancing" its ill-timed HoKeY rule change in hopes to keep/attract FF'ers? Anyone else beat HoKeY recently?

*I just checked the seal selector and it shows me up front.*

[This message has been edited by Mileage Schemer (edited 10-17-2001).]

I struck out this weekend trying to upgrade a non HoKeY fare LAX-HNL. The CSR was friendly but after trying she said she could not upgrade my fare.

As I pointed out in this thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum20/HTML/003396.html

it can and does happen that some agents make this mistake. I would love to think it is a de-facto de-enhancementization-- but at this moment I think it is just under-trained phone agents-- god bless 'em.

It appears everyone there has a different story on things. I spoke with a supervisor to upgrade my EWR-HNL segment before purchasing. The supervisor said I would have to purchase a H fare at $1700 because that was the lowest upgradeable fare.

When I told him that K was upgradeable as well, I held the line for a while and then received a "We looked it up and you're right...It'll be $682".

I really think I got more friendly and more knowledgeable reps before the CO lay offs. But there are still those very few employees which go the extra mile for you. Of course it's best to give CO a call / letter to let them know about a particular staff member, so they are rewarded for their good doings.

Then, next time you need help you try and get the persons extension for future flights http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[The thing is; in order to get a "miracle upgrade" (non-HoKeY fare) what you really need is a less knowledgeable agent-- one who will make the mistake of upgrading a non H,K,Y fare.

And, if an agent does upgrade a non-HoKeY fare, there's no sense in sending a an attaboy letter since they will receive a training-memo (bad thing) once the CO computer picks up the agent's mistake.

But of course if an agent won't allow an available upgrade on a K or H fare, you should hang up and start over with a new agent.

I am jealous.

MisterNice

Congratulations Mileage Schemer! That is a big break on a great fare. You are making out very nicely on that trip.

Got a question -- when you called for the upgrade, did you call the usual OPSC number or did you call the elite number?

anthonyanthony- I went through the elite line.

.....

What made me suspect that CO was easing up on HoKeY was that a friend was also able to make a non-HoKeY upgrade today. Thought it was somewhat unlikely that we could both get upgraded on our first attempts, with different reps, on the same day. But I guess even a low probability IS a probability...

Has anybody else tried recently (like today)?

I tried yesterday and struck out. They couldnt do one to NRT for less than $1000....on NW metal no less and she had the speech down pat... "only fares booked in H..K..Y class are allowable to upgrade"

My favorite part of the speech is when they force out "...which makes it so much easier for you and for us." It's so obvious they are programmed to spew this sort of abject nonsense anytime someone asks "aren't there any cheaper upgradeable fares?"

With the exception of the mistakes noted above, the HoKeY thing has proven to be worse than I ever thought it would be. It really, really STINKS.

On the other hand, I think $1000 to NRT isn't actually that bad-- I would imagine the lowest available fare isn't much less than that?

I inquired about 3 different reservations yesterday-- GRU (actually FLN) in late December, CDG and FCO in the next couple of weeks.

I got the HoKeY shuffle from all three agents on each reservation. I made a point of articulating (with the requisite amount of mock-shock) "Oh my god! The fare is less than half of that on CO.com!"

That's when I got the "it's much easier this way" speech.

Just as a reminder, if you get the HoKeY speech to Asian destinations, and you really want (need) to go business class, have the agent check out fares to your destination on a WHOLELY NW ticket (NOT A CO CODESHARE). Most NW tickets are upgradeable at substantially lower prices than CO. For instance, a short trip JFK to HKG is $1,000(JFK-BKK upgradeable is also $1,000) upgradeable on NW but $1800 on CO.
All NW upgrades to Asia, except HKG, require M class or higher ($1,000 RT to BKK). HKG is special and requires the next highest above M, I believe B, but am not sure, and this works out to about $1000 as well.
In the situation where you are buying a ticket and upgradeing with miles from your OnePass account, CO WILL sell you a wholey NW ticket upgraded on the spot. I am holing two of them right now.

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 10-18-2001).]

When checking out a ticket to Asia recently, the lowest available fare was $574.48 r/t (including all taxes) on Northwest. The Continental agent quoted a fare in excess of $1,900 for a Northwest fare that could be upgraded with OnePass miles.

So, my choices are:

1) Sit in coach on a paid ticket. Earn about 40,000 miles and pay $574.48.

2) Sit in business on a paid coach ticket. Earn about 40,000 miles and pay $1900.00 plus 50,000 miles.

3) Sit in business on a free ticket. Earn 0 miles and pay about $50 plus 80,000 miles.

I'm sure the Continental lurkers are having a real good laugh reading this thread...

[This message has been edited by TransWorldOne (edited 10-18-2001).]

Jon -

sounds more like the HoKeY Pokey!

You put your money in
they take the mileage out
You put more money in
and they shake it all about
You do the HoKeY pokey and you turn yourself around
And that's what it's all about....

ROFLMAO Excellent Jetsetter

[This message has been edited by iwantanupgrade (edited 10-18-2001).]

Transworldone:
You need to take the bull by the horns. Call NW and ask them the fare and fare code for the lowest upgradeable fare to your Asia destination (This will be either B or M -Remember that NW codes and CO codes are completley different. B for NW does NOT equal B for CO). Then call CO with this information. Be very clear that you want to purchase a NW ticket, NOT a CO ticket on a Northwest codeshare. Tell them you want to upgrade at the same time with Onepass miles. If they seem confused, ask them to talk to a supervisor or hang up untill you get someone that know the procedure. I have done this on 6-8 tickets and never paid nmore than $1,100 (JFK-SIN). Of course, the M or B fare must be available on the flights you want, but you can check this in advance on ITN and you can check on the NW site via the reward booking section that free (and hence upgrade) seats are available.
Armed in advance with this information before I called CO, I have NEVER been unsuccessfull.
This NW loophole is what makes the HoKeY fares tolerable.

Vulcan,

Perhaps I don't understand what you're doing completely; but:

how is your procedure different than booking a NW flight and upgrading to WBC using your Onepass miles? If you're booking on NW why are you bothering calling CO?

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by jetsetter777 (edited 10-19-2001).]

I've been watching this thread in amazement for a while and I finally must ask the question:

Everyone here does realize that coair.com reads this forum, right?

dbaker:
CO used to rea this thread. Of course you must assume that they still do, but I can tell you that the people who had that job are now gone http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif. They were nice people. They also read all of the megabonus threads last year.
Jetsetter:
yes. the goal is to get into B/F. However, I was responding to Transworldone's post regarding his experience with NW.
If you can't get into B/F at a reasonable price, AND you really, really want to travel in business class to Asia, then if you have OnePass miles, buying a NW ticket from CO is the only way I know to do this. At least it offers a way to spend the miles on international upgrades at reasonable ticket prices.
Remember the reason for the B/F 'enhancement': "To reduce the pool of people competing for a scarce resource", the B/F seat. CO chose to do this by simply rasing the price out of the reach of many, like myself, who can't afford $2,000 upgradeable tickets to Asia.

You're presuming that I'm assuming. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I know for a fact that multiple people from coair.com read this forum.

Just like how delta.com reads the Delta forums and amrcorp.com reads the American forums.

It doesn't really matter if they read about a few agent's mistakes here. The mistake is later discovered and the agent in question gets a "training memo" each time something like a non-HoKeY upgrade takes place-- this I know for a fact.

So, we're not exactly exposing national security issues in this thread.

And, I'd be just as happy if this forum was monitored so that certain folks would understand how much the H and K rule has influenced some of us elite members.

I just did the NW WBC work-around that Vulcan made reference to for a HKG trip in February-- that's lost income for CO every time someone does that, and I'd suggest that everyone try it!

Maybe then the penny-wise/ pound-foolish number-crunchers at CO will see how aggrieved this stupid "enhancement" has made some of it's high-revenue passengers.

dbaker,

Perhaps you didn't see my earlier post? I am sure Continental has people who read these threads. They probably are amused by some of the issues and grateful for free (anecdotal) market research delivered directly to them.

The words that were used when I spoke to them were that "we read flyertalk all the time and we laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh......" (Laughing as she said the words)
True quote http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

JohnNYC is correct about the loophole and I suspect more will be using it. NW got my $1,000 recently on two Asia tickets that I would hve preferred to give to CO. The only way this makes sense is that CO would rather fly the B/F seat empty than have to take an "insulting, measly" $1,000 from a Platinum member. Unless of course, every B/F seat is full with a B/F paying customer or with a customer who is willing to pay the $2,000 upgradeable fare CO thinks its worth. I would pay maybe $200 more per RT because I think that COs product is far superior. But not $800-$1,000+

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 10-19-2001).]

Well, allow me to play this out to it's natural conclusion-- just for fun:

Let's assume, for a second, that there is CO monitoring of a thread such as this.

Hey, CO luker(s)?? Listening?

Why don't you come out and play? In other forums, official lurkers make themselves known and are subject to remarkably little abuse. They will give definitive answers to complicated questions and everyone is very grateful for their input.

Why the Romulan cloaking device? (please check me on the spelling, Vulcan http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif) Come laugh with us instead of at us! We'll be nice...

Dear Lurker-

I want to do the right thing, so am turning myself in. Let me give you some more details of my flight so that I can be appropriately reverted to my previously-enhanced state:

1. I am travelling on 2/29-2/30
2. My BF seat is 8C (on a 767-400)
3. Did I say EWR-HNL? I meant AOL-QQQ.
4. My ticket is an O fare.

Please downgrade me ASAP!! Just keep the withdrawn miles for the inconvenience that I may have caused Gordon et al.

HoKeY-ly,
MS

[This message has been edited by Mileage Schemer (edited 10-19-2001).]

The HoKeY thing is just truly ridiculous. Let me just say that if you DO try to weasel a diversion, be gentle. I just got a printout of a PNR for a IAHCDG round trip where I must have pushed a little too hard - it now says "pax advised this fare non upgradeable using onepass miles." Just be gentle. Hopefully CO will see the rror in their ways very soon and reverse, I know they are losing people left and right over HoKeY. If I wasn't infinite, I'd be gone about now considering all the double miles promos elsewhere.

My big beef with HoKeY is not only that K is often 2-4x, but that K tends to have earlier adv purchase. e.g. especially in the winter, CO will release last minute Q/T fares with a 3 or 7 day adv purchase. Of course, there's no comparable K ... you still have do the 14 or go to an H, making the differential much higher.

On the bright side, I did manage to get an upgrade with miles to Upper Class LHR-EWR. The agent was very knowledgable about the rules. We chatted about HoKeY for a bit ... sounded like they'd been getting a fair amount of complaints. Said she thought they did to "be closer to NW".

That's quite a goal they've set for themselves there.

Your point about the advance-purchase requirements is a very, very, very good one. I've encountered that myself twice recently. Both times I was looking to just get out of town for the weekend and was looking to do a BF ticket to Europe for $1000 or so.

In both cases, the only K-fare that was sub-$1200 had a 7-day advance purchase requirement-- and barring that, the fare would be $1600ish, or, $2000+.

I would think CO should find a way of accommodating (if you call a $1200 ticket to Europe in winter "accommodating") last minute purchasers under the HoKeY scheme-- even if minimum stay/ Sat. night stay requirement is still necessary to prevent loss of higher fare business tickets.

These are seats that will not sell to anyone else-- either I go or I don't go. And some will choose to go for a $400 Q/T fare instead.

Does that not net the airline less profit?

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine had "Difficult" written on her medical chart.

I once got called out on playing "agent roulette" with respect to paying $ and miles to upgrade my status (supposedly a once-in-a-lifetime event, if they even do it anymore). The agent said "I see here that you were already told that this was a one-time deal..."

JonNYC ,

Could you please tell us more about how the system works that sends agents training memos when they upgrade fares that are not in the appropriate classes?

Does CO run some sort of batch job that looks at the history of a PNR, and looks for booked J/R seats when the prev class is not = to one of the fare-allowable codes? I cannot imagine they have a human being reviewing each upgrade tkt?

Just curious about the mechanics about how they literally do it, and whether if I were a res agent is it a hit or miss thing that I would get a training memo, or am I sure to get a training memo each time I did an upgrade like this?

Also is the NW work around only for Asis, or does it work from the US to Europe?

In concert with what Vulcan said, and in reference to a previous post of mine, I called CO and tried to get an upgradable ticket to asia, DCA-NRT over Thanksgiving, and guess what... it was over $2,000. How funny it was that they checked a bit further and could put me on NW for $1050, which was instantly upgradeable to WBC. Hmmmmmmm guess who I am flying on.....

[This message has been edited by thezipper (edited 10-22-2001).]

It's been explained to me at least half a dozen times and I've never fully been made to understand whether the review is manual or computerized or some combination.

Something about the res. going through "the rate desk" (no idea if that's an actual "desk" or not http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif) and that afterwards if it is determined that a non-upgradeable fare was upgraded a "training memo" appears in the offending agent's e-mail box.

I've asked the obvious question; if it can be determined with 100% accuracy what fare is upgradeable and what fare isn't-- why not determine it at the time of reservation? My guess is that it all comes back to getting the agent off the phone in a timely manner-- and of course that exact goal is (please hold your laughter) what CO claims begat the HoKeY enhancement.

All I know for sure is that it seems a virtual certainty that if an agent allows an upgrade on an ineligible fare they will most likely get the appropriate memo.


[This message has been edited by JonNYC (edited 10-22-2001).]

jetsetter:
The NW work around works for Europe as well, BUT, strangely, most CO upgradeable fares to Europe are cheaper (at $900-$1,100) than NW upgadeable fares (I've heard about $1,400 or so but can't confirm). Just the opposite is the case on Asia, where NW upgradeable fares are always cheaper.

By the end of the day, you may have to count me in the category of wanting to give Continental my cash, but Northwest ending up with it, due to absolutely refusing to risk being in coach for a business-related trip to Singapore. I know the European situation well, but this is my first trip to Asia. It does sound like when I talk to Continental shortly, the rules on the 30 day window are more flexible for Asian destinations. I hope so, otherwise I will just ask for a complete Northwest schedule through CO, and end the conversation knowing where I stand.
If the airline really does want the business traveler to return-one that has plenty of miles and would rather spend some of those to reduce total outlays in this uncertain economy than directly purchase a business class seat-they have to end the uncertainty aspect of this 30 day lottery.