CO cancels flight, what are my rights?
Sep 22, 2001, 3:13 pm
#1
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Original Poster
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Kirkland, WA
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CO cancels flight, what are my rights?
I was shocked to be told by a CO agent that when my return flight from EWR-LAX was canceled by them "due to the FAA" that they would neither accomodate me on another airliine or offer me a refund. I haven't seen a copy of CO's Contract of Carriage (couldn't find one on line) but this would seem to fall under the category of involuntary rerouting, rule 240, wouldn't it?
Are they being reasonable?
Are they being reasonable?
Sep 22, 2001, 3:47 pm
#2
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: New York, NY, USA
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If the flight cancellation really was "due to the FAA," I don't think that falls under rule 240.
Of course, that's probably not exactly why the flight was cancelled.
My suggestion is to understand that the air system is still suffering repercussions from last week, and is making life hell for everyone, so cut CO some extra slack, and take the next available CO flight.
Of course, that's probably not exactly why the flight was cancelled.
My suggestion is to understand that the air system is still suffering repercussions from last week, and is making life hell for everyone, so cut CO some extra slack, and take the next available CO flight.
Sep 22, 2001, 3:52 pm
#3
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: SFO
Programs: No status anymore. Former CO PLT, NW PLT, AS MVP
Posts: 502
The flight was cancelled due to declining loads, period. Blaming the FAA is their prerogative, but I would be very surprised if a jury would agree with their characterization of the cancellation.
Well, maybe I'm speaking prematurely. What date was your flight scheduled to occur? Was this a cancelled flight as part of the 20% reduction or was this one of the ones cancelled due to equipment out of position?
Well, maybe I'm speaking prematurely. What date was your flight scheduled to occur? Was this a cancelled flight as part of the 20% reduction or was this one of the ones cancelled due to equipment out of position?
Sep 22, 2001, 4:30 pm
#4
Original Member
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Location: New York
Posts: 2,115
mweiss: Without knowledge of the flight details you are just guessing.
In the past Continental did not often cancel flights due to low passenger loads.
Newark has been opened and closed several times in since 9/11 and the flight might have been cancelled due to compliance with something from the FAA. I'm saying it was, just that it might have been.
Now to QuietLion's question.
If the flight was cancelled due to a reason outside of CO's control, then I don't think 240 applies. Nor, do I think it should(but that's just my opinion and has no bearing on things).
In the past Continental did not often cancel flights due to low passenger loads.
Newark has been opened and closed several times in since 9/11 and the flight might have been cancelled due to compliance with something from the FAA. I'm saying it was, just that it might have been.
Now to QuietLion's question.
If the flight was cancelled due to a reason outside of CO's control, then I don't think 240 applies. Nor, do I think it should(but that's just my opinion and has no bearing on things).
Sep 23, 2001, 12:41 am
#5
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: SFO
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Posts: 502
Hence my second paragraph, Boomer.
If the flight was cancelled as part of the 20% capacity reduction (and no, it doesn't have to have occurred after October 1 for that to be the case), then it should be a 240 flight. If it was cancelled due to aircraft out of position due to the three-day shutdown, then it should not be a 240 flight.
If the flight was cancelled as part of the 20% capacity reduction (and no, it doesn't have to have occurred after October 1 for that to be the case), then it should be a 240 flight. If it was cancelled due to aircraft out of position due to the three-day shutdown, then it should not be a 240 flight.
Sep 23, 2001, 7:21 am
#6
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Sounds like you should have been given an "involuntary reroute". There also used to be a thing called a FIM (Flight Interruption Manifest). This was a handwritten form which, when issued, was accepted by other carriers the same as a paid ticket. Anybody know if that still exists?
Sep 23, 2001, 9:51 am
#7
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 2,055
Here is the link to CO's Contract of Carriage:
http://www.continental.com/service/c...f_carriage.pdf
Here are the details of Continental's Rule 35:
http://www.continental.com/service/c...f_carriage.pdf
Here are the details of Continental's Rule 35:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Rule 35
Continental Airlines shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft t any point, any passenger for the following reasons: Government Request Or Regulations: Whenever such action is necessary to comply with any government regulation, or any governmental request for emergency transportation in connection with the national defense. Force Majeure And Other Conditions: Whenever such action is necessary or advisable by reason of weather or other conditions beyond Continental Airlines’ control including, but not limited to, acts of God, force majeure, strikes, civil commotion, embargoes, wars, hostilities, or disturbances, whether actual, threatened or reported. Search Of Passenger Or Property: Whenever a passenger refuses to submit to electronic surveillance or to permit search of his/her person or property for explosives or a concealed, deadly, dangerous, or illegal weapon, article, or substance. Proof Of Identify: Whenever a passenger refuses to request to produce identification satisfactory to Continental Airlines. Note: Continental Airlines shall have the right to require identification of persons purchasing Tickets and/or presenting a Ticket(s) for the purpose of boarding the aircraft. Continental Airlines may deny boarding to any passenger who presents a Ticket to board and whose identification does not match the name on the Ticket. Failure To Pay: Whenever a passenger has not paid for a Ticket or produced satisfactory proof to Continental Airlines that the passenger is an authorized non-revenue passenger. Across International Boundaries: Whenever a passenger is traveling across any international boundary if: the government required travel documents of such passenger are not in order; Such passenger’s embarkation from, transit through, or entry into any country from, through, or to which such passenger desires transportation would be unlawful or denied for any reason; or Such passenger fails to comply with or interfere with the duties of the members of the flight crew, federal regulations or the rules in this Contract of Carriage. Safety: Whenever refusal or removal of a passenger may be necessary for the safety of such passenger or other passengers or members of the crew, including, but not limited to: Persons whose conduct is disorderly, abusive, or violent. Persons who fail to comply with or interfere with the duties of the members of the flight crew or the rules in this Contract of Carriage. Persons who assault any employees of Continental Airlines, including the gate agents and flight crew. Persons who, through and as a result of their conduct, cause a disturbance such that the captain or member of the cockpit crew must leave the cockpit in order to attend to the disturbance. Persons who are barefoot. Persons who are unable to sit in a seat with the seat belt properly secured. Persons who appear to be intoxicated or under the influence of drugs. Persons who wear of have on or about their person concealed or unconcealed deadly or dangerous weapons … Manacled persons in custody of law enforcement personnel …(for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) Persons with a communicable disease or infection … (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) Persons who, because of a mental disability, are unable to understand or respond … to safety instructions … (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) Unaccompanied persons who have both severe hearing and severe vision impairments, if the person can not establish some means of communication with Continental personnel … (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) Unaccompanied persons with a mobility impairment so severe that the person is unable to assist in his or her own evacuation of the aircraft … (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) A pregnant passenger expecting delivery within seven days, unless such passenger provides a doctor’s certificate dated no more than 72 hours of departure stating that the doctor has examined and found the passenger to be physically fit air travel to and from the destination requested on the date of the flight and that the estimated date of delivery is after the date of the last flight. Nonambulatory Passengers: Persons who are unable to move themselves or need the support of another person to walk or move, but who are otherwise capable of caring for themselves without assistance through the flight are nonambulatory. If a passenger can move him/herself from his/her seat to the nearest emergency exit without the aid of another person, the passenger is not considered to be nonambulatory, regardless of degree if impairment. If a passenger uses a wheelchair for convenience, the passenger is not considered to be nonambulatory. A child or baby is not considered nonambulatory merely because of its age, except for a baby requiring an incubator. (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines. Continental Airlines shall not be liable for any consequential, compensatory or punitive damages for refusing to transport or for removing any passenger in accordance with this rule. Continental may, however, at the request of the passenger who is removed or refused transportation in accordance with this rule, provide a refund in accordance with Rule 260 (Involuntary Refunds).
</font>
Rule 35
Continental Airlines shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft t any point, any passenger for the following reasons: Government Request Or Regulations: Whenever such action is necessary to comply with any government regulation, or any governmental request for emergency transportation in connection with the national defense. Force Majeure And Other Conditions: Whenever such action is necessary or advisable by reason of weather or other conditions beyond Continental Airlines’ control including, but not limited to, acts of God, force majeure, strikes, civil commotion, embargoes, wars, hostilities, or disturbances, whether actual, threatened or reported. Search Of Passenger Or Property: Whenever a passenger refuses to submit to electronic surveillance or to permit search of his/her person or property for explosives or a concealed, deadly, dangerous, or illegal weapon, article, or substance. Proof Of Identify: Whenever a passenger refuses to request to produce identification satisfactory to Continental Airlines. Note: Continental Airlines shall have the right to require identification of persons purchasing Tickets and/or presenting a Ticket(s) for the purpose of boarding the aircraft. Continental Airlines may deny boarding to any passenger who presents a Ticket to board and whose identification does not match the name on the Ticket. Failure To Pay: Whenever a passenger has not paid for a Ticket or produced satisfactory proof to Continental Airlines that the passenger is an authorized non-revenue passenger. Across International Boundaries: Whenever a passenger is traveling across any international boundary if: the government required travel documents of such passenger are not in order; Such passenger’s embarkation from, transit through, or entry into any country from, through, or to which such passenger desires transportation would be unlawful or denied for any reason; or Such passenger fails to comply with or interfere with the duties of the members of the flight crew, federal regulations or the rules in this Contract of Carriage. Safety: Whenever refusal or removal of a passenger may be necessary for the safety of such passenger or other passengers or members of the crew, including, but not limited to: Persons whose conduct is disorderly, abusive, or violent. Persons who fail to comply with or interfere with the duties of the members of the flight crew or the rules in this Contract of Carriage. Persons who assault any employees of Continental Airlines, including the gate agents and flight crew. Persons who, through and as a result of their conduct, cause a disturbance such that the captain or member of the cockpit crew must leave the cockpit in order to attend to the disturbance. Persons who are barefoot. Persons who are unable to sit in a seat with the seat belt properly secured. Persons who appear to be intoxicated or under the influence of drugs. Persons who wear of have on or about their person concealed or unconcealed deadly or dangerous weapons … Manacled persons in custody of law enforcement personnel …(for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) Persons with a communicable disease or infection … (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) Persons who, because of a mental disability, are unable to understand or respond … to safety instructions … (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) Unaccompanied persons who have both severe hearing and severe vision impairments, if the person can not establish some means of communication with Continental personnel … (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) Unaccompanied persons with a mobility impairment so severe that the person is unable to assist in his or her own evacuation of the aircraft … (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines) A pregnant passenger expecting delivery within seven days, unless such passenger provides a doctor’s certificate dated no more than 72 hours of departure stating that the doctor has examined and found the passenger to be physically fit air travel to and from the destination requested on the date of the flight and that the estimated date of delivery is after the date of the last flight. Nonambulatory Passengers: Persons who are unable to move themselves or need the support of another person to walk or move, but who are otherwise capable of caring for themselves without assistance through the flight are nonambulatory. If a passenger can move him/herself from his/her seat to the nearest emergency exit without the aid of another person, the passenger is not considered to be nonambulatory, regardless of degree if impairment. If a passenger uses a wheelchair for convenience, the passenger is not considered to be nonambulatory. A child or baby is not considered nonambulatory merely because of its age, except for a baby requiring an incubator. (for exceptions contact Continental Airlines. Continental Airlines shall not be liable for any consequential, compensatory or punitive damages for refusing to transport or for removing any passenger in accordance with this rule. Continental may, however, at the request of the passenger who is removed or refused transportation in accordance with this rule, provide a refund in accordance with Rule 260 (Involuntary Refunds).
</font>
Sep 23, 2001, 3:31 pm
#8
Join Date: Sep 2000
Programs: OnePass
Posts: 885
It seems to me that CO is more likely than some other airlines, like AA aand UA, to leave the passenger out in the cold in these types of situations. If a CO flight is cancelled or delayed due to things out of their control (such as weather or an FAA excuse), CO is likely to not do anything they don't have to do.
When I was stranded at EWR overnight due to a missed connection stemming from a weather delay, CO left me high and dry, with no hotel vouchers, meal vouchers, or a flight out on a competing airline. (For what it's worth, I was CO gold.)
Of course, that is CO's right. But, in another thread, AA and UA elites (esp AA) said they reguarly got accomodation for similar situations where the airline had the right to not do anything.
Is CO more stingy than other majors??
(Edited for my crappy grammar)
[This message has been edited by anthonyanthony (edited 09-23-2001).]
When I was stranded at EWR overnight due to a missed connection stemming from a weather delay, CO left me high and dry, with no hotel vouchers, meal vouchers, or a flight out on a competing airline. (For what it's worth, I was CO gold.)
Of course, that is CO's right. But, in another thread, AA and UA elites (esp AA) said they reguarly got accomodation for similar situations where the airline had the right to not do anything.
Is CO more stingy than other majors??
(Edited for my crappy grammar)
[This message has been edited by anthonyanthony (edited 09-23-2001).]
Sep 23, 2001, 4:01 pm
#9
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Join Date: May 1998
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 6,932
Thanks everybody. I am CO Gold (via a comp from Centurion card) and I must say it never occurred to me that they would not protect me on United in the case of a canceled flight with nothing else getting me in within two hours of original schedule. I realize this is a difficult time but if I ran the airline I'd be bending over backwards to win customer loyalty, not quoting policy. As tfjim posted above, I think they even got the policy wrong.
Not too big a deal, but certainly a missed opportunity to wow me.
Not too big a deal, but certainly a missed opportunity to wow me.
Sep 23, 2001, 5:11 pm
#10
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 852
Might want to poke around and see if CO has published anything similar to NW's Customer First policy. THis was done in response to the Congress's threat to pass a passenger bill of rights- the airlines came out with a lot of promised reforms, and supposedly self-imposed rules of how they would take care of passengers in untoward situations.
In NW's case, I've had the experience of having their Customer First policy trump any 'Contract of Carriage,' since I maintained that I relied upon that policy when I purchased my ticket.
In NW's case, I've had the experience of having their Customer First policy trump any 'Contract of Carriage,' since I maintained that I relied upon that policy when I purchased my ticket.
Sep 23, 2001, 5:22 pm
#11
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ronin:
Might want to poke around and see if CO has published anything similar to NW's Customer First policy. THis was done in response to the Congress's threat to pass a passenger bill of rights- the airlines came out with a lot of promised reforms, and supposedly self-imposed rules of how they would take care of passengers in untoward situations.
In NW's case, I've had the experience of having their Customer First policy trump any 'Contract of Carriage,' since I maintained that I relied upon that policy when I purchased my ticket.</font>
Might want to poke around and see if CO has published anything similar to NW's Customer First policy. THis was done in response to the Congress's threat to pass a passenger bill of rights- the airlines came out with a lot of promised reforms, and supposedly self-imposed rules of how they would take care of passengers in untoward situations.
In NW's case, I've had the experience of having their Customer First policy trump any 'Contract of Carriage,' since I maintained that I relied upon that policy when I purchased my ticket.</font>
I'll try to remember to pick one up this Friday and see what it says
Sep 23, 2001, 5:26 pm
#12
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Smoke filled room, TPA and FLL/MIA :UAL 1K and 2MM,AA EX PLAT and 2MM,Lifetime Plat Starwood
Posts: 4,318
I have had 7 flights cancelled this week. Each time CO will rebook on other flights. I suspect when we get ALL the info from Quiet Lion, we will find the reroute was not to his liking... NOT that they would not get him from EWR-LAX. They will not refund, non refundable tickets if they reroute you. Quiet Lion, CO operates in a VERY different manner than UA. They do not as a practice protect you on other airlines. In addition, (since the tragedy) they are not even notifying us of cancellations...where would they get the time to protect on another airline? Out of the 7 cancelled flights, only today was one actually rebooked by CO. All the others were just left for me to fix. Again, I suspect this relates to the staffing. Perhaps you could clear this up and relate ALL the details of what happened? Specifically did they offer you another CO flight? And what was the date of the trip?
Sep 23, 2001, 6:31 pm
#13
Join Date: Sep 2000
Programs: OnePass
Posts: 885
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cigarman:
[...] Perhaps you could clear this up and relate ALL the details of what happened? Specifically did they offer you another CO flight? And what was the date of the trip?</font>
[...] Perhaps you could clear this up and relate ALL the details of what happened? Specifically did they offer you another CO flight? And what was the date of the trip?</font>
So, the partial details of QL's dealings with CO are:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> Originally posted by QuietLion:
Since my 6 p.m. return flight on Sunday had been canceled I called Continental to see what could be done. They stonewalled me on taking another airline or getting a refund. I said I didn’t think that was right but signed up for the 8:10 flight for the time being. First Class was sold out.</font>
Since my 6 p.m. return flight on Sunday had been canceled I called Continental to see what could be done. They stonewalled me on taking another airline or getting a refund. I said I didn’t think that was right but signed up for the 8:10 flight for the time being. First Class was sold out.</font>
(Edited because I type too fast and don't error check before submitting)
[This message has been edited by anthonyanthony (edited 09-23-2001).]
Sep 23, 2001, 10:52 pm
#14
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: SFO
Programs: AS — views are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer
Posts: 163
Since the Customer First plan was brought up, thought I'd post the link, FWIW:
http://www.continental.com/dash/buil...asp?service_06
http://www.continental.com/dash/buil...asp?service_06
Sep 24, 2001, 4:15 am
#15
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: In protest of Flyertalk's uncalledfor censoring of my point of view, I cancelled my InsideFlyer subscription. So long, and thanks for everything.
Posts: 3,325
Do cancellations effect the DOT statistics for on-time performance?
Or putting the question another way, has CO given up on it's obsession with staying on top of the on-time stats in consideration of the disaster?
Or putting the question another way, has CO given up on it's obsession with staying on top of the on-time stats in consideration of the disaster?