CO is Doing a Smart Thing
 

1. You can't look at the raw metrics quoted in this thread as informing any serious decision by a for-profit business. The question isn't how many seats you are selling, but the revenue for the marginal seat you sell. If you sell one more seat than you actually have, that is, oversell by 1 and sell that seat at full Y (9-10x the price of the lowest-priced seat), it's probably a good thing, even if you wind by with IDB +1 and the reporting that goes with it.

2. Generally-speaking, when I see UACO dealing with VDB's at the gate, there is an extra GA assigned (roving supervisor) and the actual boarding process isn't being delayed.

3. CO (and other carriers) are dialing back VDB comp and it's self-evident on many flights that there are people more than willing to take low-end VDB. Sometimes, when the GA announces the offer, including the likely reroute, it's not only low $ but also an inconvenient reroute. But, to somebody with nothing to do, they get some miles, a little bit of cash and are happy.

4. In the end, if stuck with an IDB, it's likely to be one or a combination of of three types of pax:

A. Somebody who missed the boarding cut-off and thus gets $0.
B. Cheap fare
C. No status

5. On the other hand, I see GA doing a better job of artfully finding people with greater flexibility, tolerance for low $, no checked luggage.

6. Lastly, I strongly suspect, although I don't know this, that at least CO's GA's can see on-screen whether the pax is a FVDBS (Frequent Voluntary Denied Boarding Seeker). For business reasons, no carrier wants VDB to be a pax goal, so it would make sense for carriers to use such individuals only as a last resort.

Doesn't count against the IDB stats. :-:

As a matter of fact, the offer has increase - CO was used to begin with $250, but now $300 AFAIK.

Believe me or not, luggage was not the issue at all. I have once VDBed with CO with 2 checked luggages.

At the same time - no one ever tells the airlines to oversell. Please note, in some ways, people who are willing to VDB are in fact doing favors for the airlines.

I don't see how people, even they want to abuse it, can really abuse VDB (except you are buying refundable trying to get off every flight, which is another story).

Sorry, I suffered a complete brain fade this morning and got cross threaded. Yep, nothing about software here... :o:o:o

FWIW, there have been other claims that the software also makes for more IDBs, but that wasn't in this thread, so you aren't completely crazy. :p

Exactly. It's the best of all. It's easy, costs nothing in the moment and doesn't harm the brand (DOT).

And that's the main idea for overselling.

VDB Strategy
 

I'm not sure if I'm asking in the right place, however I'm looking more for experience in VDBs on CO, so this seems to collect those groups of FT'ers.

I've got a MR tomorrow involving 4 segments. Segment 2 is quickly filling up and if all the standby pax are cleared, there are only 3 Y seats left (F filled up a long time ago). Here's hoping to a potential VDB. My question is:

As this is a MR, I've got a quick turnaround on to Segment 3 (45 minutes), so a VDB would result in me missing this connection as well. That being said, is it worth it to volunteer, as the CO GA will clearly be able to see my future flights. Or, does taking the VDB mean I've had a missed connection, and I can deal with that when I arrive at Airport 3?

I'm also fully prepared to hear that this might be an itin. to NOT try and VDB on :)

Thanks in advance for everyone's help - if this should be moved to another thread, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Can you drop segments 2-3? Or can you reroute to a totally different city and back from there?

Depends on the GA if they're cool with that.

I definitely could reroute to a different city, fill up other segments, etc. I'd be happy to alter the itinerary with some vouchers in my hand. I wanted to check and see if anyone had a clear reason to say 'NO' to VDB on this itin., as previous posts have alluded that GAs can be picky from pax to pax.

I suppose it'll take some finesse with the GA though - maybe take the VDB, let them board, and then try to reroute afterwards (when they are less stressed) would make their life easier...? :D

The issue will be whether it makes things difficult on the GA. If it makes the rebooking more difficult in SHARES, you may find that your GA is less willing to do it. If you get a GA who is a SHARES wizard and isn't afraid of something like this, then this may be less of a concern.


Well you have to balance that. You don't want to fail to disclose something material either. I want the voucher, but I want to play above board too. If it means my return will have to be rebooked, the GA should be aware of that.

The last time I did something like this on CO was a SFO-CLE-MCI-CLE-SFO MR. CLE-MCI was over, and they let me just drop CLE-MCI-CLE. I tried to get home quicker (CLE-EWR-SFO), but they said no to that (probably because it would have been more cumbersome in SHARES to reissue that vs. just dropping a couple flights).

Oddly enough, CLE is also the city I'll be attempting this at tomorrow - let's hope VDB is possible. As I always do, I keep a list of possibilities with me for every flight in case of VDB, and I'll see what I can do. If I get lucky, I'll make sure to post my results.

I guess one final question, if anyone aside from/including channa is still following this discussion, is 'at the gate' the earlier I can mention VDB list to CO? Or can that be done at check-in desk as well? Thanks again for everyone's help - I'll ask these questions once and then know from here on in :)

Yes and Yes.

CO has a computer VDB list which you can get on at your earlier airport in your itinerary.

Problem is, it's so cumbersome for agents to use, that most CO agents do not use it and collect BPs at the gate, first-come, first-serve, ignoring the list.

Perfect - thanks for all the help channa! Again, I'll keep the thread posted if I make any progress.

Typically you'll be treated perfectly fairly by a CO GA in the event you want to volunteer for an earlier flight. This isn't a systems issue.

Believe me or not - VDB needs planning.

In the last 2 years, I have VDBed 4 times (2 per year). 3 of them was planned ahead and 1 unexpected.

I will not say you don't have a chance or not - and quite honest, except knowing you will go through CLE, no other information is available.

So I assume that you are certain that the flight will result VDBs.

In this case, I will plan ahead for my alternative (strange enough, as VDB is voluntary, GAs still treat it as involuntary change as a trip-in-vein).

In most of the cases, the GA will general accommodate you based on availability.

That's why it is good to plan - so that you know what to expect.

For a question to yes or no for VDB - ask yourself - is the segment (or EQM) important or that voucher is more important? :D

Always good to have multiple opinions - I'm glad I was able to get some additional feedback on this.


I agree. I've already got a list of possible alternatives and hoping that being "flexible" and "prepared" for a VDB will help the agent along and I can get things done before any other questions are asked.

I've VDB'd several times on UA before, but I've always been in a situation where I could get to my second airport in the run before the corresponding flight took off. I'm looking for advice because there's such a tight connection, and a quick review of my itinerary is not the average view, I feel :)


Thanks again for the different points of view - it only helps me be a bit more successful! Again, I'll post back with results if I have any success.

To fill in some personal, small experience on CO: I always ask whether the flight needs volunteers and always offer my seat if possible. (Although it's often inconvenient to be rerouted, I can usually accept the $/hr valuation of my time; and I would rather be inconvenienced if it can help someone else get home). In the past couple of years I've tried maybe 10 times out of maybe 50 CO flights. So, not very often.

In every one of those 10 times, at various stations (EWR, CLE, SEA for sure), the gate agent has always taken the first person who walks up to them. (In one case, in SEA, this person cut a line, my protests were ignored, and they took him as the only volunteer.)

It could be that the first person they take is also the top person on their electronic list. That really could be!

My proposed explanation is that this is a particular expression of a particular aspect of the UA/CO service culture for gate agents: the customer currently in front of you is the most important customer in the world. You stick with them until you've resolved their issue to their satisfaction, and only then do you move on to the next person.

I've seen agents do remarkable things to VDB their current customer. For example, I watched an agent who was working a flight with plentiful volunteers call up another airline and buy the customer an OAL ticket to their final destination, when there was plenty of CO availability that other volunteers might have used. And I was once VDB'd from SEA-CLE to SEA-ORD-CLE and the agent had such complicated problems with the reservation that it took the agent 45 minutes (no exaggeration) to reticket me -- with a huge line growing behind me all the time.

My small, limited experience has definitely borne out the idea that CO treats customers perfectly fairly if they want to volunteer. But in this case "fair" means something very specific like "help every customer in the order they arrive" and deliberately does not include murky issues like prioritizing elites, operational efficiency, or conserving OAL spending.

In a perfect world, everything should follow their own orders.

However, it is not always the case.

For UA, GAs tend to stick to the list if they can. For CO, it is hit or miss.

But sticking to the list or not take a lot of consideration, such as:

1. Your final destination and routes. For instance, for LHR-EWR, if a passenger is travel on LHR-EWR-IAH and another one is LHR-EWR-CLE, the one going to IAH will tend to get the VDB (as that person can re-route on LHR-IAH non-stop, but not the one to CLE).

Also connecting to an international flight is certain a no for VDB (as you may miss your flight).

2. How many people are traveling with you

1 is the best. Once I have a 1K couple who were before me on the VDB list. But still I was the first one got it.

3. Checked Baggage

A lot of people claim that it matter. The reality is no - remember unless it is an international flight, the GA does not need to offload your baggage at all, assuming you still want to make the trip same day.

(I have once VDBed by CO with 2 checked baggage. The GA did not offload my baggage at all, as my replacement flight leaves about 45 minutes. What best is CO even transfer my baggage, upon arrival, to UA Baggage Desk and they were safeguarded by UA personnel.)

4. Cabin Class

GAs tend not to choose premium classes passengers. Once, I had to push for it.

But in general, as soon as you are a Premier Gold or above, VDB should not be difficult to score.

With all due respect, IME CO typically follows first-come, first-served for VDB consideration. Note this is not processing or acceptance, but consideration. As has been pointed out, connecting flights or other issues will impact your ability, but if you want to be the first in line for VDB, you better be first in line at the CO gate, IME.

Typically the CO GA will write VOL #1 or something like that and collect a pile of BPs. This is irrespective of whether you're on the computer VDB list. That's where the system comes into play. If you think like a UA person and just hang out in the club or have a seat and ignore what's going on because you're comfortably on the list, you may get passed over because many GA's don't query the list.

In fact, in a recent discussion with a CO GA, they said don't worry about the list, even if you're on it, be at the gate and report to the GA to express interest.

There were probably no problems with the reservation. The problem was likely getting the right cryptic SHARES commands to reissue your ticket. While 45 minutes is certainly excessive, even for SHARES, a lengthy rebooking process is to be prepared for when dealing with CO rebooks.

If there's one agent and multiple VDBs, it could be a while before you're on your way.

First come, first served definitely seems to be the rule.

I recently flew a non-stop transcon from California to EWR and they called for volunteers about 60 minutes prior to departure. The GA also announced what the alternative flights would be and they worked for me.

I was the third (and last) person to get to the podium to volunteer behind one male (first in line) and one female (second). The GA took my BP and I filled out the form. As I was completing the form the GA placed my BP on her counter next to the BPs from the other two volunteers. I noticed that they had no status (I'm very tall and it's easy for me to see over the top shelf).

Later they called me and the female to the counter and told us they didn't need our seats. I boarded and never saw the male (first in line) board so I assume he got the VDB.

So much for status making a difference :td:.

I relaize it's the prerogative of the GA to take who they want in a VDB situation, but at least with PMUA status counted for something.

OBTW, the offer was for a coach seat and $250 in credits. I thought this was pretty low for a transcon.

For me - no offense, but I will show my side of DYKWIA...AFAIK, it is still an official policy to VDB based on status.

I will simply let them IDB instead. $250?

I would love to have that verified by someone. As I mentioned, even with PMUA GAs had a lot of discretion to bypass the status ordered list, but at least it was a starting point and as a 1K I could push a bit using that as a basis. So far with sCO flights the FCFS approach seems to be the only thing that matters.

My strategy going forward may be to only volunteer once the auction/offer is increased to something closer to $400.

Personally, I can't verify that. But I did ask a PMUA GA in ORD before. And it seems it is the policy (although they have discretion on who to pick).

Flying another MR tomorrow, including a FLL-EWR segment. At the moment, CO.com status is showing FLL-EWR has Economy being full, with First open (only 3 seats open, showing on KVS). Hopefully we'll have a few missed connections or standbys that the GA needs a volunteer for.

As my itinerary is four segments, and FLL-EWR is segment 3/4, anyone have an idea if its worth trying to get on a VDB list early, or should I just be first at the gate?

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Missed connections or standby will not make the flight overbooked.

For missed connections, they are booked in the next available flight. So they will be put into the flight if they have inventory.

For standby, always the lowest priority, any seats left.

You did not say about that KVS 3 seat in what fare classes. But since there are not too many flight to EWR, I will say you should reconsider before you take anything.

But I don't think there is anything to offer anyway.

FWIW, it's not uncommon for misconnects to be forced onto flights with no shown inventory, especially if they are statused passengers with no other reasonable reaccommodation.

UA is very good about doing this. In ORD, for example, they'll often purposefully zero out a flight on an IRROPS day and then the planners can allocate the space as they see fit. So a flight that may be over by 2 with an authorization of 12 over will show F0 Y0, and the computer can't book the space. But a planner or 1K desk can get you on.

FWIW - You are right :D

But in general - those passengers will not be stuck in that capacity.