Kyklin, I'm a very liberal minded person - so I don't wanna force nobody into nothing. I did just suggest to use common sense. Ignoring people or arguments or discussions or singular events you dislike is just one method to deal with it. But it is the one method almost everyone uses in the "real world".
I just don't understand, why so many are willing to regulate stuff, which isn't regulated "outside".

No, No, No, No, No. Weren't their five questions. OZ is a joke, people take this waaaay to seriously. People are going to come and go no matter what you do. This is still a great forum for flyers. Just listen to us newbies, we all love it. Let's talk about something important like how can I get AA miles and fly to SIN for under $900 like you can on UA from DFW?

SVPII,

Oh yeah... can we have another rule.

No posts will be allowed that only say "I AGREE" or only have emoticons with no value added? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

William

Please add my vote dissenting against all these proposals. The board seems to have survived all of the past "crisis du jour" without them, and I expect it will continue to do so in the future.

Though I haven't posted much, I began lurking over a year ago, and finally posted for the first time in October. I also took the time to read most of the old threads, way back to 1998. And to tell you the truth I don't see much difference in what happened back then as to what's happening now. Change a couple of names (and mix in some of the same names) and the situations are practically identical. So are the same indignant cries for moderation or pleading for intervention from Randy, along with the same people yet again threatening to quit.

It just seems to play out over and over again.

My 2¢ worth.

I say keep things the way they are.

But with an option to 'can' the offenders.

By the way, I don't mind Doc's posts. They're informative. And I'll say this about Doc, he does seem to rise above it all.
That's good advice to everyone.

I just don't see the need to be mean spirited like some of the others. What's the point.

Dan
edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by dhammer53 (edited 03-06-2001).]

This in an uninformed reply. I have not had time to read all of the replies to the original post, only the first 20 or so. My big question (and again, I'm uninformed) is that, given the current state of the economy, do the people who manage this message board have the funds to execute the items suggested?

If the answer is "no", do we want this board to go under because some participants want maximum regulation? Don't get me wrong. I don't want to see rudeness, crudity or unnecessary profanity. However, I also don't want to lose this frequent flyer community by requiring more than it can deliver. I am happy with what I have found here - it may not be perfect, but that is the case with most message boards and I would not want to put a free, valuable service in jeopardy because some people don't want a free, valuable service unless it is perfect.

FF

I think Premex's problem was that Oz kept posting and reposting inaccurate information, so Premex as an altruist felt it his duty to keep pointing this out so that other perhaps less seasoned flyertalkers wouldn't be misled. He would, I believe, say you can't simply ignore or walk away from errors when this board's life-blood is sharing accurate information and experiences.

When you're dealing with someone who has an almost pathological need to be accepted, admired, never considered to be wrong, etc, as Oz obviously does, the predictable result is that the pathological person will eventually turn round and start grossly abusive and insulting name-calling in their frustration at being consistently shown up as less-than-perfect. And that kind of name-calling can really hurt, however much you try to rise above its childishness. When you add in e-mails received in quantity, all containing shouting and abuse, plastered with bold capitals and exclamation marks, in your own personal e-mailbox, that can be the end. There seems to be no escape from the abuse, even in your own home. I can sympathise with Premex's decision to withdraw.

To my way of thinking, we could do without regular moderators, if there was some way of consigning the name-calling posts to another place - Hot Debate Room, Sin Bin, or whatever you want to call it. It would simply need the injured person to notify Randy or A.N. Other that it had taken place. Then the thread could be scrutinised and the offending post(s) removed (assuming FT does have the technology to do that) and placed elsewhere, leaving the remainder of the thread intact. To that limited extent, I go along with svpii. It still wouldn't deal with the e-mails received at home, though.

By the way, isn't it great to have clear and intelligent discussions, unencumbered by outbursts from the aforementioned temporarily-banned person... The board is so peaceful http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif in comparison with its recent state.

[This message has been edited by 1P (edited 03-07-2001).]

I'd say too that keep things as they are.

I must admit to being puzzled and a little disappointed by the many, I am sure well intended, calls for 'ignoring.' Would you ignore untruths told about you that were spread throughout a community you care about? Would you feel it an effective response to do this? If you asked any politician they would respond 'NO' because they have learned that untruths unanswered become truth in a significant part of a community. If Oz were only hyperventilating a bit he could be ignored safely and effectively, and I would recommend that course of action. However, he makes aggresively false statements about actual people. He attacks people and spreads information potentially harmful to them, sometimes when those people are not present to defend themselves. I have avoided many of the Oz wars, I have ignored his self-serving and program-destructive posts, but that leaves his posts that meet the criteria I mentioned above. I don't think in good conscience you can give him free ride on those sorts of things. Even if you excuse the annoyance at his constant and voluminous postings you should not excuse everthing.

I heartily re-point out the absolutely changed nature of the board outside Oz presence. The same was true when he was briefly offline during the holiday. This place is different, no doubt about it. The 'feel' is back. I mean, this is a guy who brags about 'leaving a string be for 7 hours'...this when a look at the time shows that is sleep time in Australia... what a guy!

To the thread topic I add my view that moderation/controls are not likely to change much and be a lot of work for people. This problem is extremely well circumscribed. The hesitation I have is that if precedent is set for removing people for something other than profanity there is of course some danger that the definition for removal could begin a journey from the present almost non-existent possibility toward enforcement of a politically correct or fairly narrow allowance for the expression of ideas. However, in this case I still think removal is the answer. Oz does not spread just bad ideas (those I would have to accept, perhaps occasionally challenge) he spreads untruth that has destructive force, that, in my opinion, is unacceptable.

1P: excellent points.

I'm conscious of being fairly new, although I've lurked my preferred suppliers' boards for a year or so. My vote is for moderators and as little formal structure as possible.

[edited for spelling]

[This message has been edited by LexPassenger (edited 03-07-2001).]

I tried to post this yesterday, but the server seemed to be mucked up. Sorry if some of the references are a page or two up.

This is not a bar, a workplace, or a church group. It's an on-line forum. Argument by analogy, although it can provide insights, only goes so far. Birdstrike's comments in Those who do not learn from history seem to me to be the most pertinent to date. He's right about what we're going to lose, later if not sooner, if something isn't done.

What puzzles me is, what do people - especially those who are "only here for the miles" - think we'll lose by having moderated forums? If they don't care about the flames and random junk now, what possible difference should it make to them, unless of course they actually like the flames? But those who like that sort of thing already have other boards to go to. Why should we expect that carefully chosen, replaceable moderators will cause more problems for the majority of us than egotistical flamers?

bernie wrote, this is supposed to be an open forum, so everybody is invited to "do what he wants". Sorry, I can't agree. (bernie, not trying to pick on you; you just happened to say succinctly what a lot of people seem to think.) Before registering, haven't we all agreed to abide by certain rules of behavior? The problems we have now are being caused by people who seem to feel that the rules don't apply to them, or who think that they can safely flout the rules because no significant punishment will ensue if they do, or who simply enjoy getting a rise out of other folks. Or all of the above.

Until now I've been a part of the "ignore them and hope they go away" group. But it was a slow weekend, and I spent quite a bit of time reading old threads. Not sure exactly when I changed my mind, but I have.
One of the fallacies of the Ignore 'Em viewpoint is the contention that we're all adults here. We're clearly not, whether by chronological or - much more important - by emotional age. The occasional peccadillo is no big deal; a continuing pattern of abuse is. And although one individual seems to be a big part of the problem at the moment, it seems to me sensible to have a structure in place that could deal with any seriously disruptive person. This might even encourage positive contributions from posters who otherwise waste our time and patience.

doc, you left out "some come to interact with like-minded people who share a common interest in travel".

svpii, count me under "General Agreement" - but I'm of the opinion that the lightest hand possible should be applied to the reins. Rather than make this post even longer, I'll just say that I pretty much agree with james's comments on p.1.

There is lots of good information, insight and ideas within this thread. The problem is how do we make the majority of posters feel at home and find something that makes everyone happy? Additionally, how do we actually manage to execute ANY changes. The board to date has been open to all with total freedom except for the rarest of circumstances, even though change has been promised several times. We can post all we want about solving problems to the infrastructure and operations of the board, but we need to figure out how to cause and instil change. Postings do not seem to be enough to cause change. I agree with many of the ideas on this thread, and that the time has come to evolve from where we are now to a better organized and better run bard. I am just not sure how we actually make that happen? If I had my say, we would go with the first post in this thread posted by svpii and then work the bugs out from there. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

What will change when implementing "rules" - we will start discusssing and argueing over those rules and the interpretion of 'em.
Even the most reasonable members will do so.
That's my concern.

As someone was countingg votes, her how mine to exactly:
I approve:
1. Usenet style moderator groups
2. Ignore feature
I disapprove:
1. Automated censoring(sometimes called PC)

Data gathering has concluded. 34 people responded. The dataset is so small, I am presenting it in raw form, rather than in analyzed form. As you can see, there is marginal difference.

The first number = the number approving the concept element. The second number = those disapproving. (I can't get it in a table format).

General Overall Proposal 12 12

Moderators 16 13
User Advisory Council 14 13
Hot Debate Room 14 15
Multiple Aliases 12 14


The conclusion is that based on this very limited sample, no compelling preferences exist. A stronger conclusion might be that most people weren't motivated to state their position.



[This message has been edited by svpii (edited 03-07-2001).]

I wonder if democrats went one way and republicans the other. I want a recount and a drug test of all voters. Are there any missing votes on a lost drive somewhere?

Sorry but this is an international board...

I think I forgot to vote about multiple aliases, so in case you continue compiling results, I would favor an outright ban, even for humor, etc. If someone was doing a "santa" type activity, they can simply set up a special email address for that purpose and ask people to send anything relating to that activity to that address.

Re: Drug testing... I am strongly in favor of that idea, although, I must say, I think some flyertalkers are definitely ahead of the rest of us who havent tested many drugs. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif I'm thinking any future PIP activity should be in a fairly liberal location if we are really to move forward with this suggestion.

Sorry I missed the vote.I would generally be for moderators and against everything else. From everything I've seen of Randy , having any heavier hand on the board isn't going t o work for him, and his vote counts alot http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

If he indicates i that this is NOT the case I will feel more motivated to help effect change.

Just my 2 cents.

Fellow FTers,

Instead of a Hot Debate Room, I would prefer copy the stock market. I'm not sure if it is the same all around the world, but here in Brazil the market will pause for some time if there is a sudden huge devaluation. During that time, people will calm down before the works resume. So the situation will not get even worse because of decisions made under huge stress. We all know the pillow is a good advisor http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

So, what about freezing the hot threads for 24 or 48 h? Instead of an incentive* to our fights, let's give us a chance to think and don't hurt anybody http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Love,

Toxa

*edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by Toxa (edited 03-09-2001).]

I would be very surprised if Mr. Peterson would allow himself or his company to become deeply involved in this proposal. I would expect him to "think about it" rather than to accept any of the proposed actions no matter how well they are crafted. If he has actually banned two persons from this Board he already has put himself at risk. This Board has an ample supply of fiery, confrontational, and litigious members. I have read several posts wherein a member has complained of being mistreated in one way or another by an airline, and has filed suit.Some gloated about having collected money or other benefits from an airline simply through threat of a suit.Some of the suits were reportedly about minor affronts and other very trivial matters - perhaps even more trivial than being banned from this Board for example. I can't believe that he would risk sharing any authority with us. I fear that this whole thread is just an empty exercise.

Toxa, thanks for your input. I couldn't resist replying only to have a bit of fun with you http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif I mean it in the best and most amusing way...

'incentivating' is a wonderful coining of a new word...you would make George W. Bush proud! He'll have to use that one in an upcoming speech on education!

I realize English is probably not your native tongue and, as I said, my poking fun at you (and the president) is completely well intended http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif !

Do you mean "eduKation?" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

-Wubya
with thanks to my tutor, Dan Quayle

-----

Does this show/prove that there is no substitute for wealththy and/or powerful parents?

I hope not! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Thanks for the lesson. Is it ok now? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif

Well, you're right, English is not my native language. But it seems I'm not alone:
http://www.columbiacentral.com/dubya http://www.bushfordummies.com

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Toxa, I liked it better with the invented word! I wasn't making fun of you, just having fun with you. Your english is just fine http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Don't worry, we can still be friends http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Now that I see you're german, I'll impress you. Note that I'm not completely dumb for fereign words: spitzmundwackelohrenblinzelaugenschnuppernasengesi cht http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

swiss german lesson 2: read very fast: Wenn din Bueb mim buen nümme seit bueb so chunnt min bueb und haut din bueb dass din bueb mim bueb nüme seit bueb

Ich bin hier falsch geparkt!

Heh ?