IP Logging is not the answer
 

I don't think this is a good idea for two reasons.

First of all, it doesn't accomplish the task it sets out to do. It's trivial to be anonymous on the Internet. You can access the network at any point in the world, mask your real IP address and source and come into Flyertalk from multiple sources. So if someone wishes to continue to post under multiple aliases, IP logging doesn't stop them at all.

Secondly and from a personal viewpoint, we shouldn't restrict anyone from posting anything on this board. If someone has the time and will to flame someone or some organization, go ahead and let them. The readers can choose to listen or ignore. That's the way things work in the real world and thats the way it should work here. I don't read every post in every forum, but I do read a lot here. And I haven't seen anything objectionable yet. I see lots of things that I ignore based on my conclusion that the poster is clueless or self-serving, but that's no reason to suppress them globally.

Lastly I'll offer a way forward for those who wish to keep this board for themselves. Charge a nominal fee (say $10 per year) and collect credit card info for every user. That will limit the multiple personalities and give you a trace back to any user. This plan might be abused by someone who uses stolen credit cards, but that is much less likely to happen than the current scenario.

I understand and even share your concerns about restricting the marketplace of ideas, Stimpy. But if I want that, I'll visit alt.travel. IP logging is a reasonable if not perfect measure here on FY, IMHO.

No one should be worried about IP logging if they are adhering to the FT TOS. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

BTW, I love your pay to play concept. Perhaps one day some renegade flyertalker will make such a system a reality...and get rich doing it?????



[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 12-13-2000).]

I don't think anyone will get rich doing this since not too many people are going to pay much for this. The $10 per year is just a small way to limit multiple personalities. Flyertalk earnings from the revenue would go to administrating the effort of collecting money.

But my point about IP logging not being effective stands. I challenge Flyertalk to locate me or stop me from posting. I access a different IP network just about every day in my travels. There is no way for them to shut me down. And I'm not even trying to disguise myself. I could come in from a different point, masquerade my IP address, use a new username each time and post whatever I wanted.

Stimpy is right here, of course, and it is just a simple deterrent rather than a perfect solution - but it's sometimes better to not post this info, IMHO! Why tip ones hand to the unscrupulous? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

And the funds collected could be used either for FT functions or to buy miles to dontate to things like Make a Wish.

Please dont flame me for suggesting charaties on behalf of other people.

TW

Again, the price and resulting funds are only for paying for the administration of collecting the money. It is a significant effort for a website to configure a credit card setup, process the charges, and keep track of the income for tax purposes. It's my ballpark guess that $10 per year, per member would cover those expenses.

Again, the sole purpose of a fee would be to make it much harder for people to abuse the board. The fee is not to make anyone rich or to divert money to a charity.

I have more ideas on this subject, but they are moot unless Randy & Company really want to make this effort.

Quick. Where do I send my check!

I second that. There is no way to keep someone out just by logging an ip number. Most people have a dynamically assigned IP number even when they sign on from the same physical location let alone the frequent traveller accessing through international pop's,.....

Stimpy, I agree again. This is a community of humans on the Internet and everybody has the right to choose what to read and what not. I never experienced anything bad in this community - well, ONCE after a posting I received a spam to buy some used stamps, but that was all. I hit the delete key and it was gone. There wasn't anything shocking or really disruptive going on as far as I can tell. I just came across one single flame and it was so stupid that it was almost funny again.

I disagree! I think the open, direct and free structure of this board is what makes it so attractive. Lots of people with different backgrounds, ideas, ... informing and helping eachother. Sometimes it has some character of an old boys/girls club - no insult here!- but it is open and tolerant to newbies/others. From my first posting on when I was stumbling over this board - even with my new member branding - I felt respected and received more help then I was hoping for. Please let's keep it in this way and let's be open to welcome new members without any hurdles like cc and so. I am sure I am not the only one who would not be here if there would have been a cc barrier or whatsoever.

just my two cents
Axel

[This message has been edited by Axelerator (edited 12-13-2000).]

Totally agree with Stimpy ...

Considering all the things, in general, that are put forth as being THE answer, it's refreshing to hear of something that isn't.

I seem to remember that NJDavid had brought up this very idea sometime back.

IP logging is misleading at least.
1. When somebody has only a dial in, he gets
a different IP every time he dials in.
2. People being behind a firewall, all have the same extrenal IP, that can be thousands
of individuals masked on a single IP.
3. There are anomyzer services which totally disguis the sender.

Just my 2 cents.

I like Stimpy's first point. If you don't like the thread or find it useful, don't follow it or read it. That is what I do.

I would willingly pay to be a member of this board as it has helped me to earn points and miles and given me insight into how to be a better frequent traveler. It thought I was an expert after flying for business for over twenty years. I'm really an beginner and know just about nothing.

You all are teaching me things everyday. I am afraid that if the board charged then less information would be posted by less people making the board less valuable to us all.

I am new, but love the board and check it almost everyday. Do what I do, if it about flying learn from it, if it is drivel just click on to the next post.

I tend to agree with Stimpy's assessment. However, in order to really ignore annoying people, posts or threads, UBB needs a feature equivalent to usenet's kill file. You define what (or who) you don't want to see, and it's gone.

Hey Arturo, what's this

thing I keep seeing? Vegetating minds want to know...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

OK, after further thought I withdraw my pay-for-play suggestion.

As someone who has helped build the architecture of the Internet for over 10 years, I know full well the primary reason for its success. Openness. If the Internet was closed in any way, most of you would never have heard of it. In fact things like Firewalls threaten the continued growth of the Internet and future applications.

Also, as a citizen of a free country that allows open criticism of its leaders I can't pursue an action that is intended to shield the people here from new input, whether good or bad. Freedom is wonderful, but expensive and sometimes painful. We just have to take the good with the bad.

As for UBB, it's a nice application with great features and I'm glad that we have it. But it doesn't allow for much user control (like a kill file) since that would defeat it's architecture. So I think the only thing we can do is endure the occasional malicious posting just as we endure offensive behavior on the streets we walk on in the real world.

Stimpy is right, the internet is open and shall stay open and we don't see that much trash here, that strict controls are needed.
IP logging is useless anyhow as I explained
earlier in this thread.

Well Peter, IP logging here seems to be having the desired effect - the problem(s) have largely disappeared since it was turned on (and hopefully that isn't only due to the quieter holiday season).

The recent improvement may be due to IP logging, but more likely is a result of the extended vacation(s) of a few notable FTers.

stimpy, Techno wiz kid that you are, are you really suggesting that firewalls should not be used at all? I don't know about your company, but my employer spends a lot of time and money keeping intruders and viruses out of our way. Otherwise, we'd be sitting ducks. So we forgo sites that use Flash and Shockwave. Small price to pay for keeping the newsroom alive and well.

Essxjay, it's a pretty deep point and one that we debate at great length at Internet Engineering Symposia. If you protect your hosts, you don't need firewalls. And while firewalls are good at blocking unwanted traffic, they often block useful traffic as well. Newer applications that expect a free open internet are being stifled by firewalls and NAT (Network Address Translation), and if you stifle applications, you stifle the growth of the Internet.

I can go into much more detail, but not here. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif If you make it down for the So Cal PIPP we can discuss further.

Stimpy:
As I operated Firewalls myself, I can tell you that you can make most application work
thorugh one, actually we always found a way to do it.

You can build an ALG for any protocol, but it's not scalable and you have to build a new ALG for each protocol. Try H.323 for instance.

Whether it's IP logging, vacation schedules or just the holiday season, I have to agree that FT has been a far lovlier place the past couple of weeks http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif. I find myself actually looking forward to checking in again, rather then dreding it...

kokonutz - I totally agree - peace appears to have broken out.

You are right, but there are toolkits like TIS making it easy but not scalable. Anyhow I don't want to miss the firewalls.

Unfortunately, it will have to wait farther into the future as I am unable to attend the PIPP. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

essxjay: Why the Flash paranoia? It seems innocent enough (from a security perspective).

I'm not my company's security expert, eps and so you'd have to pose that question, minus the unnecessary invective, to our systems chief.

What I will tell you is that newspapers are hot targets for hackers. My paper gets a lot of attempted break-ins: sometimes just a few per day, sometimes dozens depending on what we publish on a given day. We cannot chance any breach of firewall integrity due to the proprietary nature of our business. Allowing all 400+ of our news staffers (from senior editors to copyaides) access to the Internet is nearly unheard of in this business because of the risk and we're very careful about what they may access and what plugins are safe to use.

This is to say nothing of VB nasties attached to email, which users can carelessly launch thinking it's legitimate info aimed at them. The Love Bug shut down editing systems all around the country, but not ours.

This was not public information at the time I posted.